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IFT (instrument flight time) & IFR

Hey All,

In my written logbook I have “Operational Condition Time”. Under that, I’ve got night and instrument. I’ve always logged any instrument work, under that column.

I’ve now got an electronic logbook (In excel) that is as per EASA standards. The bit that’s highly confusing is I’ve got

IFR and IFT.

I’ve done Instrument Appreciation for the PPL – that goes under IFT right?
The IMC rating? That goes under IFR, right?
Then every flight I’ve done since then before the IR training is IFR time?

I just want to make sure my logbook is 100% correct.

Qualified PPL with IR SP/SE PBN
EGSG, United Kingdom

Ex19 in PPL for Basic Instrument Flying can’t be logged as dual IFR time unless the instructor is an IRI, in a nutshell you can’t log IFR instruction time with TRI, CRI, FI not holding IRI to teach IMCr/IR (you may happen to fly through clouds or slightly under at 140kts with them but you can’t log student dual IFR time, only “type rating”, “class rating” or “initial licence” dual instruction time, they can log PIC IFR)

IMCr rating you can log both PIC & PUT IFR from breaks on to breaks off, you will need to log BSRFI when in clouds or hood

Last Edited by Ibra at 16 May 10:27
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

pilotrobbie wrote:

I just want to make sure my logbook is 100% correct.

For how long? During my flying ‘career’, I had to log time under four different rules. I have paper logbooks in three different formats. My general recommendation is to log raw data and then present what is required in whatever way the bureaucracy-du-jour needs it.

So I would have two columns, and add another one which may come handy later:

  • Flight by sole reference to instruments [the classic UK / FAA way]
  • Flight under IFR [under EASA interpretation, more about that below]
  • Cross-country flight under FAA rules (while you are at it, might as well – I had to go back over a few years for that when I got my standalone FAA licences)

You can always hide these columns if required.

Unless you need the hours, I would not go back and ‘reconstruct’ the EASA IFR hours.

======

But if you have to, you will get many different answers of how to do the ‘translation’. This is because the EASA definition is is a bit rubbish a bit vague, they say you should log ‘Operational Conditions’ but they then say they mean ‘Flight Conducted under IFR’

The generally accepted bits are

  • Any flight that is conducted under an IFR flight plan counts as IFR in full (block times) [fits the definition]
  • Any flight under Z / Y flight plan counts as IFR for the IFR portion (including tax times at the IFR end[s]) [fits the definition]
  • Any flight instruction towards an instrument rating counts as IFR in full [does NOT fit the definition unless under IFR flight plan or in IMC, but this is the norm]

The tricky bits are UK IMC Rating / IR(R) privileges

  • Any flight instruction to the IR(R) counts, and I would include IMC rating instruction (pre-dating the IR(R) in that as well.
  • IFR flights solely in class G should count, but how can you tell it is an IFR flight? Personally I didn’t bother unless the flight had a substantial proportion in IMC; you may have difficulty convincing a CAA bureaucrat to accept more than the IMC portion

The bits I would forget about are

  • Any IMC work / under the hood work outside training towards an instrument rating. The training flight in most instances is not conducted in actual IMC and/or under an IFR flight plan and hence does not meet the definition, and it is unlikely to be much.
Last Edited by Cobalt at 16 May 12:22
Biggin Hill

@cobalt, what about the PIC IFR XC flight using IRR? You set up squawk 2000 on the ground and fly under instrument flight rules from A to B. Surely that is IFR PIC XC? Because you ARE under IFR…

Last Edited by arj1 at 16 May 12:47
EGTR

Why CAA would not count 200h IFR off airways and/or off clouds (Class G or D) as long as the aircraft is IFR capable and pilot is rated? or it has to be +2T Class A flying with an EIR holder plus some supporting en-route bills to be counted as “proper IFR”

Last Edited by Ibra at 16 May 13:09
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Maybe an urban myth but I think a colleague used his night time in a Tiger Moth (which then all night was IFR in the UK) to count towards the IRI requirement.

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

LOL, maybe I should add 301h IFR from gliders to my logbook: about 300h hours of time spent close to clouds above 3000ft amsl and maybe 1h inside clouds (took 20 wave flights) to my count and see if CAA is happy

Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

I don’t know if its still technically in effect, but the UK CAA still has this in various bits of guidance (I don’t know if EASA and/or other authorities have similar):

Note: Instrument Rating/IFR requirements reflect relevant logged IFR time. Where time recorded is instrument flight time solely by reference
to instruments this will be allowed at 4: 1 (i.e. 1 hour = 4 hours IFR).

At the end of the day, the legally required time to log is the IFR time, whether that is on an airways flight in hard IMC, or bimbling along in perfect VMC but complying with IFR (the oft mentioned ‘mindset’ difference of VFR/IFR OCAS in the UK and other states allowing this).

The only time I can think I ever needed the ‘flight by sole reference to instruments’/instrument time was for rating/licence issue, and I haven’t given it any thought since then. There are still various ratings that require time that is not required to be logged under Part-FCL, such as IFR Instruction given and ‘instrument time’. If I needed something additional again I would either temporarily re-purpose a logbook column or write it in remarks, or add the required field on an electronic logbook and then hide it once it was no longer needed.

Last Edited by Pirho at 16 May 14:51
United Kingdom

Maybe an urban myth but I think a colleague used his night time in a Tiger Moth (which then all night was IFR in the UK) to count towards the IRI requirement.

There was a time, years ago, when a plain PPL could log IFR time flying daytime in VMC, on the even-numbered flight levels. I think it was in JAA days, before the EASA conversion. @tumbleweed may remember. I have long lost track of this, along with which G-reg planes could or can be flown on an Australian PPL using the automatic validation etc etc But this was not a joke; it was absolutely real and was heavily discussed, by experts including some serving on EASA committee(s), as a means of building IFR-PIC time towards the then proposed CB IR pipeline. EASA was well aware of this but didn’t move to block it because, IIRC, the German delegate would not believe it is possible, because it wasn’t possible in Germany. It was speculated that CB IR FTOs will refuse time thus logged. Since EuroGA has been going since 2012 I am sure we have the relevant posts here.

Today, is IFR-PIC time of any relevance towards anything? Instrument-PIC or instrument-dual, yes, towards an IR (EASA, or FAA in the dual case).

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

@Peter, whilst not specifically PIC time, but:

(a) for an IRI(A):
(1) have completed at least 800 hours of flight time under IFR, of which at least 400 hours
shall be in aeroplanes;

Or I suppose you could say that the 250 hours here is almost certainly PIC:

(a) IRE(A). Applicants for an IRE certificate for aeroplanes shall hold an IRI(A) and have completed:
(1) 2 000 hours of flight time as a pilot of aeroplanes; and
(2) 450 hours of flight time under IFR, of which 250 hours shall be as an instructor.
United Kingdom
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