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TCAS RA in a hold

Graham wrote:

That’s fine so long as you trust other pilot(s) involved to do the same. I think that @Peter’s point is that, essentially, that may not be the case.

Since Ueberlingen it is the case.

Knowing both worlds and realizing the misconceptions I think it’s too bad jump rides aren’t a thing anymore. Would be a good experience for private pilots.



Last Edited by Snoopy at 22 Sep 10:28
always learning
LO__, Austria

Graham wrote:

Personally I can totally understand why pilots would flee the hold laterally. In this scenario you have one job and that’s to avoid a collision – so it’s better to able to argue the toss afterwards. Of course mine were not airliner/TCAS situations, but I have been in one or two difficult situations with close-proximity traffic doing unexpected things and my philosophy (and the action I took) is to get the hell out of Dodge – I simply fly away from the problem into an area that I can see to be clear. I don’t care whether in doing so I’m breaking a rule, protocol or even a law – I will simply be glad that I’m alive to argue about it afterwards!

You simply can’t do that in a holding stack over London. Flying airliners, it just doesn’t work that way.

Last Edited by Snoopy at 22 Sep 10:29
always learning
LO__, Austria

Snoopy wrote:

You simply can’t do that in a holding stack over London. Flying airliners, it just doesn’t work that way.

If @Peter’s anecdote about the NATS video is true, it would appear it does.

Just because there was a seminal accident doesn’t mean the issues raised with ELP and competence have gone away. I’m pretty sure some/most airline pilots don’t explicitly trust others in the stack to do the right thing, just as I don’t explicitly trust others in the circuit to do the right thing.

Last Edited by Graham at 22 Sep 12:55
EGLM & EGTN

Ultranomad wrote:

ove you, and TCAS suddenly says “Descend descend”. What shall you do? A TCAS RA in such a situation is fairly likely to be irrelevant – for example, this Eurocontrol study, albeit old, analysed 35 RAs in a hold and found 6 useful ones, 19 nuisance ones (i.e. dictated by TCAS logic but operationally unwarranted), 3 false ones, 4 RAs replicating ATC instructions already issued and 3 with insufficient data

I am not an airline pilot, does not operate aircraft with TCAS (only TAS), and I did not read the survey, but I understand 6 out of 35 were “useful ones”, so more than 17%.
If by “useful one” you can translate to “would have fd up a pilot day if the RA would not have been followed”, I think I would be better safe than sorry, and don’t care if I push adrenaline to my fellow colleague orbiting 1000 feet lower.

LFBZ, France
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