I was answering to this question (from post #1) :
“Does anybody know how typical this is of Paris area? Should I expect such shenanigans each time?”
The answer is in AIP (R205).
lionel wrote:
How do you find the phone number of “nearby ATC”?
Some phone numbers are in AIP AD of nearby IFR aerodromes or AIP GEN3.3 DSNA contacts who can forward my call to ATC
Guillaume wrote:
I was answering to this question (from post #1) :
“Does anybody know how typical this is of Paris area? Should I expect such shenanigans each time?”
The answer is in AIP (R205).
I see, thanks. It says:
VFR/IFR GAT flights outbound from and IFR/VFR GAT flights inbound to aerodromes not featuring IFR procedures: With connection to the IFR procedures of (list of aerodromes)
I’m not sure what “with connection to the IFR procedures of (list of aerodromes)” means concretely. Does this mean one should file e.g. LFOR DCT LFPN then a LFPN SID? I’m not even sure the Eurocontrol syntax and validation rules will even allow to put a SID that is not first thing in the route???
Also, my flight plan validated against the Eurocontrol rules (and was accepted by IFPS). Does this mean that these restrictions, while published in the AIP, are not encoded in the Eurocontrol database?
Does this mean one should file e.g. LFOR DCT LFPN then a LFPN SID?
I don’t think what one file in FPL matters that much, I was told once file whatever AutoRouter gives you and “just call us”
I think your route “TSU UM163” as is fits the bill to join SID at LFPN at RBT, POY or HOL but I assume a phone call to ATC before EOBT would confirm that plan
Also, filed FPL route is irrelevant for lost comms on departure inside Paris TMA: the procedure is not an ICAO standrad (7min then revert to FPL?), you need DME, then you remain on assigned altitude along departure route or heading/direct until 40nm POY or 30nm PGS before resuming the filed flight plan
The filed FPL route defines legal fuel though
PS: they may ask to remain VMC/VFR untill 3kft or FL70 in Alpha after departure, I have not figure out what that means as once I was departing with 1km runway visbility? but I gather if I end up in a hill with clouds around, it’s not ATC problem
Ibra wrote:
PS: they may ask to remain VMC/VFR untill 3kft or FL70 in Alpha after departure, I have not figure out what that means as once I was departing with 1km runway visbility? but I gather if I end up in a hill with clouds around, it’s not ATC problem
What I’ve seen as a reason for that is that they want you to be in their sector before opening IFR. If you would start IFR in a sector not owned by the controller you’re talking to they would have to call the other sector and coordinate or first hand you off for only a few minutes climb. But it’s strange if it was all class A below, because then keeping you VFR wouldn’t really solve anything since you can’t be there VFR.
Thomas28 wrote:
What I’ve seen as a reason for that is that they want you to be in their sector before opening IFR. If you would start IFR in a sector not owned by the controller you’re talking to they would have to call the other sector and coordinate or first hand you off for only a few minutes climb.
Well there are few explanations why they want you ‘VFR/VMC as you enter Alpha’ on climbs off-route:
- CYA: if you hit traffic or obstacles in IFR climb in Golf while outside the sector, it’s not their problem plus the procedure for lost comms in VMC outside airspace is trivial
- France used to have ‘La Surface-S’ and no IFR in IMC bellow it unless you are on published departure or radar, that went to the bin in 2006 and no longer a thing in SERA/NCO
- There is no guarantee of radio reception & radar contact, so you got climb first to get your radio, altimeter and transponder verified, if this fails in VMC you stay out of TMA !
- ATC can’t give separation to unknown traffic in lowest 500ft/1000ft of airspace as you climb, they need you to lookout before they get a bubble around you?
Thomas28 wrote:
But it’s strange if it was all class A below, because then keeping you VFR wouldn’t really solve anything since you can’t be there VFR.
The weird ‘remain VMC/VFR’ has zero meaning outside airspace (you can’t get instructed) and has no meaning (unless you are a military AlphaJet as of July 14, you will be IFR in Alpha TMA), besides, aerodrome takeoff minima for instrument runways is the only legally binding thing out there, however, it’s important to call ATC to ‘open flight plan’ or ‘mise en route’, you get transponder code and SAR service if something happens and it reduces workload, they also verify your flight plan: I did takeoff once from Lognes to LeTouquet without calling LeBourget/Melun, they refused my entry as they could not find my flight plan (I found 3 hours later that I filed the wrong aircraft registration), my flight was in clouds all the way to Creil before Beauvais helped…
I think ‘remain VMC/VFR’ and what you get depends on individual controllers and their plans for you,
- On takeoff from LesMureaux/Lognes, I get told to remain VFR and join at LeBourget
- On takeoff from Pontoise with 1000m RVR (TKOFF MIN with NO ATS is written in plates), CDG departure asked remain VMC until FL70, I said ‘Roger’
- On takeoff from Melun with @Jujupilote, night departure with 300ft ceiling & 2km vis, I was told to sqwuak xxxx, fly 270 heading after takeoff and nothing else
Beware once they ‘open flight plan’, changing plans is no longer an option, on takeoff from Toussus with no ATS in good weather, I had to come back to circuit and land due to onboard pax emergency, I did not even get the chance to talk to ATC but we got greeted with BGTA & RFFS on the taxiway
In France the concepts of IFR in VMC or VFR in IMC do not exist. You are either IFR or you are VFR. The fact that you are flying IFR in clear blue skies is of no interest to ATS. Of course being in IMC in VFR is not permitted.
In the Paris region the telephone call to Orly or CdG is a good start, but from an uncontrolled airfield you still take off in VFR with a join IFR at such and such a point at Hhmm at altitude. This will be the subject of your flight plan and something worth discussing in the phone call.
The telephone call will give an idea of traffic and how easily/quickly you might expect to fit into the system. They might suggest using the POGO to a more convenient intersection or to join a STAR.
This might mean that you need to go from an uncontrolled (no AFIS also) to a zone which has ATC which can give you permission to enter CAS which in turn are able to co-ordinate your IFR join at somewhere along your route.The best way to do this might be to use a POGO to another Paris airfield first followed by a SID from there. It is much more complicated to write in the abstract than to actually do with an actual target to plan. Of course all this can mean going back and fore.
Its a bit like going out onto a D road outside uour house, the joining a B road and then an A road and then a motorway then making your way into the fast lane. At each change you need agreement to do so from someone who is looking to maintain legal distance between all traffic, often travelling at different speeds whilst keeping all traffic moving fluidly.
I agree with everything, except
gallois wrote:
from an uncontrolled airfield you still take off in VFR with a join IFR
Where do you get that (very wrong 
) statement from? I am sure it’s a typo as every single airport in France allow IFR takeoff (except Lognes, StCyr, Courcheval and 5 others), try filing I-FPL in CFMU from any airport including moonlight strips and you will see it validates, actually @lionel filed I-FPL from Chartres, he could have legally departed IFR there on 1.5km visibility & 10ft ceiling…
- At Toussus, I can takeoff uncontrolled IFR with 550m VIS day and 800m VIS with no ATS, you can read it in Jepps/AIP plates
- At Dreux, I can takeoff uncontrolled IFR with 800m VIS but you need 1500m visibility due to Arrete 2019
- At Chartres, I can takeoff uncontrolled IFR with 550m VIS but you need 1500m visibility due to Arrete 2019
The law for aerodromes is here (called RCA3 or Arrêté du 12 juillet 2019 in France), it allows uncontrolled IFR departures,
- Off published procedures with VMC (means 1.5km visibility)
- On published procedures on plates minima
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/loda/id/JORFTEXT000038864224/
AirOps has takeoff visibility requirements for takeoff in NCO, it supersedes what you have here (AD IFR minima for GA) but Chartres runway has everything to allow 550m visibility takeoff if you have a published departure (omnidirectional is enough)
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/loda/id/JORFTEXT000024462872/
Of course the majority of pilots in France do this
lionel wrote:
they told me “nothing you can do from the ground, call Paris Info in the air”
You don’t have to “depart VFR on Z-FPL and sort it in the air”, you can “open I-FPL and depart IFR” !
Ibra wrote:
Some phone numbers are in … or AIP GEN3.3 DSNA contacts
GEN 3.3.3.1 is unclear, as the specific case of an airport that does not have a CTR like Chartres, is not listed.
That is how I managed to talk to Nantes ATC (for LaBaule) and Toulouse ATC (from Lasbords), I called DSNA who fwd my call to ATC, maybe one is better off asking local IFR pilots if they have any phone numbers? for CDG/Orly sectors, phone numbers are listed in AIP AD2.2
CTR is irrelevant here, Toussus does not have one at all, they still insists on phone calling Villacoublay or Orly for IFR startup, Pontoise without ATS loses CTR and reverts to Golf, they insist on calling CDG…
How does it work in Sweden to open IFR flight plan on the ground and get join instructions without ATS in AD towers?
