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Flying in Europe for the first time!

May I suggest that for the OP’s benefit we focus on how the system works, without going down rabbit holes.

jfw – your post shows (1st two route images) how one canot go near the mil areas but gets easy transit of airport CAS That is very typical of how it works in France. Going with that one has VFR charts which are nearly impossible to decipher in places, so it is just as well it works this way. But for IFR this all falls away.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I note you want to go to Ibiza. It’s busy in summertime, so do check for the need to get a slot, and even a parking spot may be an issue. Best would be to contact a handler for that I suppose. For them to coordinate a slot will come at a price no doubt, as it will be an additional service over and above the basic service (transport on ramp only which they are obliged to accept as a minimum). You may want to consider Mallorca (LESB) or Menorca (LESL) instead, where you have the option of easier fields, especially Menorca.

Some general tips for flying in Spain:

1. You may want to avoid the state-owned (AENA) fields as much as possible, unless money, bureaucracy and delays don’t bother you. Especially the larger fields in the (coastal) tourist spots, Barcelona, Reus, Valencia, Almeria, Malaga, Mallorca, Ibiza, Menorca, Sevilla. The smaller AENA fields, usually inland, like Burgos, Valladolid, Pamplona, Granada are less bothersome, but do check for Avgas availability and other limitations like opening times. In contrast, there are plenty of privately-owned, hassle-free fields with fuel and food, suitable for a SR22. Along the coast: Ampuriabrava (LEAP), Castellon (LECN), Requena (LERE), La Axarquia (LEAX). Inland: Andorra (LESU), Soria (LEGY) to name a few. They are VFR and day-time only, but you will see that the climate here almost never will be a problem, so plenty of opportunity to go there on a IFR/Y plan.

2. Especially in summertime, controllers are busy. And their ELP varies quite a bit. They are used to handle standard traffic flows and anything out of the ordinary may be difficult for them to understand and handle. I say ‘may’ because the proficiency varies. Also, speak slowly and clearly and stick to standard phraseology. It is sometimes difficult for native Anglo-speaking people to understand that comprehending and speaking another language is difficult, so mumbling and slang does not help

Private field, Mallorca, Spain

Peter wrote:

jfw – your post shows (1st two route images) how one canot go near the mil areas but gets easy transit of airport CAS That is very typical of how it works in France. Going with that one has VFR charts which are nearly impossible to decipher in places, so it is just as well it works this way. But for IFR this all falls away.

Quite off topic but I fail to see how you come to that conclusion. I do not see issue with the mil areas you refer to….

Last Edited by jfw at 30 Jun 11:42
jfw
Belgium: EBGB (Grimbergen, Brussels) - EBNM (Namur), Belgium

Jeesh @johnh you could complain that it is more expensive to fly here in Europe but for the rest I a have to disagree. You can generate a flightplan in under 10 minutes with Autorouter like @buckerfan says and be on your way within 30 minutes. ATC never gave me issues, but I do not fly IFR that long. The destinations are varied and usually not that far apart. I think you should stop dissuading your compatriot and fly some more. Just France alone has so much to offer.

Last Edited by Bobo at 30 Jun 12:52
EHTE, Netherlands

I fail to see how you come to that conclusion

I may have missed something but your routes avoid all the mil areas in the east of France.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Also, in the US, airports are typically seen as infrastructure while in Europe they’re typically primarily seen as revenue-making businesses. (Which is a bit ironic considering the common saying that the US is “capitalist” and Europe “socialist”.)

Interstate commerce (meaning regulation of private business across state lines) is one of the limited number of areas in which the US Federal Government has authority. It’s an example of how the US form of government is set up rationally, viewing itself as a necessary evil in certain well defined areas (and nowhere else, we continue to hope), being held to account by the public to do its job versus setting itself up as a ruling class, and therefore taking those limited areas seriously.

Reading this thread I’m reminded that my kind of flying basically doesn’t exist in Europe. I’ve never filed a flight plan of any kind since I got my pilot certificate, have no interest in ever doing so, don’t talk to ATC a great deal either except at larger airports AND I go places without any issue. I’m meanwhile based in some of the business airspace in the world, at an airport with 600 operations daily. I’m not sure based on reading this site for years that most European pilots can conceive of such a thing, but it is the way many or most US GA pilots fly, more or less.

Last Edited by Silvaire at 30 Jun 14:31

Silvaire wrote -
Reading this thread I’m reminded that my kind of flying basically doesn’t exist in Europe. I’ve never filed a flight plan of any kind since I got my pilot certificate, have no interest in ever doing so, don’t talk to ATC a great deal either except at larger airports AND I go places without any issue. I’m meanwhile based in some of the business airspace in the world, at an airport with 600 operations daily. I’m not sure based on reading this site for years that most European pilots can conceive of such a thing, but it is the way many or most US GA pilots fly, more or less.

Why do you think that sort of flying does not exist in Europe? I assure you in France many do much the same as you describe except that we don’t have many airfields with 600 operations daily.

Last Edited by gallois at 30 Jun 15:15
France

@Gallois, for sure my choice in flying if I were in Europe would directed in the way you suggest, likely in microlights or e.g. a classic Jodel, within a country or group of countries in which I could fly without it being a continuous planning and communication hassle, or requiring permission for airspace access. France is a relatively big country and I’d guess the most similar to the US in that way.

What do you think would be the furthest point to where you could fly a French registered microlight relatively directly from let’s say a small uncontrolled field near Toulouse, or any corner of France, without any flight plan and without any communication to the ground either before or during the flight? I’d want an altitude of 3000 ft agl or more for safety (I typically fly 7500 ft east and either 6500 or 8500 ft west). Could I go to Corsica that way, as I might to say Catalina Island in the US? Corsica is one of favorite places in the world.

Last Edited by Silvaire at 30 Jun 16:02

I’ll start with the second question re Corsica.
You need a flight plan to go to and from the mainland. It didn’t used to be the case up until a few years ago when the DGAC became alarmed by a large number of aircraft ditching between the 2, and the fact that a few of the ditchings weren’t identified for several hours.
To answer your first question. I haven’t planned a route from an airfield near Toulouse but you can fly much of France, without talking to many people. I regularly fly an hour or 2 without talking to anyone, just auto announcing at airfields at the beginning and end of the flight. Especially at the weekend. Although, I couldn’t guarantee you could do it at 3000ft let alone 7500ft.
I would probably have to use the radio a few times at those altitudes.
Like you there are many French pilots who avoid the radio as much as possible which is why the DGAC and the FFA have gone to a lot of trouble to persuade pilots that it is in their interests to talk to the SIVs.

France

Thanks.

I don’t “avoid the radio”, particularly for air-to-air comm around airports, but talking to the ground is mostly unnecessary by regulation for my flying and mostly a waste of time and attention. If I have to be distracted from flying, watching for ADS-B traffic is a much more productive than chatting aimlessly back and forth with ATC.

Last Edited by Silvaire at 30 Jun 17:58
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