Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

Need to be sure of your avionics doing this

I must correct what I said earlier (in my post #46):

Maybe not exactly “a full type rating” but we do require here in Australia a logbook “sign-off” for each “new” GNSS installation we intend to use during IFR ops. For example, G1000 must be singed-off separately from units of a G400/500 series.

A separate “endorsement” for each “new” GNSS installation is not required (by Australian CAOs) to be entered in one’s logbook. However, it is a common practice here to do so since such “permanent” records are often useful when renting planes equipped with different GNSS receivers.

Civil Aviation Order 40.2.1 – Instrument rating
….
13.4A For regulation 5.16, a person who has a RNAV endorsement must not conduct a RNAV approach in I.M.C. as pilot in command of an aircraft unless he or she has carried out at least 3 RNAV approaches in flight, or in a synthetic flight trainer, using a GNSS receiver:
(a) which is the same as that fitted in the aircraft; or
(b) which CASA has determined in writing is to be taken as being the same as that fitted in the aircraft.

Last Edited by ANTEK at 26 Nov 08:24
YSCB
They chose this profession for completely different reasons.

I wonder what those were? When I was briefly mixing with a bunch of ATPL students at some crappy Bournemouth hotel I did wonder what motivated them. I think they watched Leonardo DiCaprio and thought it would be a great job in which you would be shagging Size 8 stewardesses. Not on European short haul you won’t be

From my observation, I would call their main motivation “laziness”: Nineteen years old, finished school, no idea what to do, but convinced that another four to five years at university studying over books is not for them. Even less so working for three years to learn a “real profession” by doing an apprenticeship. The parents don’t care either, whether they subsidise them for five years of university or pay for an ATPL course makes not much difference financially. So off to the flying school they go. Six months of theory, another three months to a year to pass their theory exam. Differently from back when I did it, you can now take one subject at a time, so even with zero interest and motivation you will eventually pass. And then as long as it takes to fly your 199 (or whatever) hours, depending on season and weather another six months to a year. The good ones finish within two years and are already traveling the world in the company of pretty young ladies and earning serious money when their classmates are only halfway through their bachelor course. Until a couple of years ago at least, now there are no jobs. But obviously they don’t care about that either because the number of students is as high as always.

If you want to meet really motivated and interested and technically minded students, you must look at PPL courses. Unfortunately there are not many of those left. (If you haven’t noticed already: I am very close to give up instructing – it is very frustrating to try and teach people something that they couldn’t care less about.)

Last Edited by what_next at 20 Nov 09:16
EDDS - Stuttgart

Why activate an approach, what does it mean. I could go on

Obviously, I agreee, but my point is that these inter-GPS differences are much bigger than GPS-navaid differences, yet there is no formal “type rating” for a GPS.

Should there be? That’s quite a can of worms to open. I would suggest that a large % of SR22 / DA42 / etc owners would be grounded if they had to attend such a course and pass a test at the end of it. OTOH if I was teaching somebody I care about to fly I would make sure they do understand all the kit – as per jet practice where, as what next suggests, it is obviously important because of the potential of killing more people. But in light GA it would kill innovation because a lot of pilots can’t get their heads around the details, and modern avionics are really cryptic and – for non anoraks – very hard to figure out. No doubt that is why there are so many “IT professionals” in flying at the IR level; few others can understand it so they stay with the basic PPL.

Garmin would need to completely overhaul their user interface design and the stuff would be like an Ipad – so banal that I often struggle with trivia like how to open an email attachment. (OTOH a lot of that is because Apple went to massive lengths to pretend there isn’t a file system).

I’ve written this before, but I used to know a guy who had difficulty driving a car with a manual gearbox. He bought a light jet and tried to get the IR (basically a TR) several times and failed, finally buying a turboprop which he could finally get his head around to the extent of flying it between the UK and N France. He is probably quite common, though obviously most don’t have his money.

However when I bought my new TB20 (2002) I never found an instructor who knew how the KI525 HSI worked. I flew with several, one of whom claimed to have an ATPL (it was fake) but the others had what here they call frozen ATPLs (a CPL/IR done at an FTO, but not enough TT). They knew what the heading bug did, allright, but the course pointer? That was a mystery. Especially if you pressed the NAV/GPS switch so “GPS” lit up… I solved it by flying on autopilot over Kent at 5000ft while fiddling with the knobs, having downloaded the manuals (nothing useful came with the plane). So, should there be a TR for anything with an HSI? After all, you can get both the FAA IR and the JAA IR without using an HSI.

As I say, a can of worms…

because I tend to ask too many questions the instructor doesn’t know the answer. So for me these events have been a complete waste of time.

Well, yes, see above

But then you are a super clever IT bloke who could develop a GNS530 given enough time. As indeed I could… and I know what next could too. That isn’t really the point however.

They chose this profession for completely different reasons.

I wonder what those were? When I was briefly mixing with a bunch of ATPL students at some crappy Bournemouth hotel I did wonder what motivated them. I think they watched Leonardo DiCaprio and thought it would be a great job in which you would be shagging Size 8 stewardesses. Not on European short haul you won’t be

Last Edited by Peter at 20 Nov 07:35
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I usually get sent home from those obligatory formalised theoretic training events, because I tend to ask too many questions the instructor doesn’t know the answer. So for me these events have been a complete waste of time.

LSZK, Switzerland

There are differences between flying RNAV procedures and those based on ground Navaids. Many of these are academic and don’t seem to affect pilot performance, such as what is the difference between RAIM prediction and an integrity alert due to a bad RAIM calculation or how does the CDI differ on a LNAV approach with a TSO C129a GPS verses the same approach using a TSO C146 GPS in a SBAS service volume. Other issues are more important, such as how do I get the box to do what I have been asked to do by ATC. How do I control a hold, what is OBS mode and how does it affect navigation including transitioning back out of OBS mode. What is the difference between a Direct-to a fix and activating a leg, How can I fly to intercept an airway by following a radial from a VOR. How and when should I initiate a missed approach navigational guidance. How do I get the autopilot to do what I want on those 90 degree turns to the final approach course. Why activate an approach, what does it mean. I could go on.

KUZA, United States

It’s a sad world where we don’t trust pilots to be responsible enough to read the manual of their gadgets or ask anyone competent if they don’t understand it.

As far as private pilots are concerned, I couldn’t care less. (And this is also the authorities view in my part of the world.) But when I get onboard an airliner as a passenger I insists the the colleagues up front have received type and installation specific training. Firstly because I want to survive and secondly because I have helped to train enough pilots to know about their ability to read and understand manuals… And luckily the authorities in my part of the world see it the same way! As I wrote above: A lot of commercial pilots are not technically minded or even interested. They chose this profession for completely different reasons.

Last Edited by what_next at 19 Nov 22:39
EDDS - Stuttgart

It’s a sad world where we don’t trust pilots to be responsible enough to read the manual of their gadgets or ask anyone competent if they don’t understand it.

It is essential to behave responsibly.
Reading the manuals and asking for advice of others is commendable, but….
formalised training and obligatory periodic re-training are, in my opinion, absolutely essential, regardless of one’s past experience.
“Difference training” often deals with nothing more than getting one accustomed to new positioning of familiar switches and knobs

Last Edited by ANTEK at 19 Nov 22:28
YSCB

For example where VOR/LOC display orange “NAV” flags, many GPS installations flash an amber “MSG” light somewhere else on the panel.

So? Different NAV receivers have different knobs to twiddle, yet I don’t need an instructor sign off a “King rating” or “Narco rating”.

And then we have class ratings, where a pilot could, shock horror, just fly with a different aircraft without asking an instructor.

It’s a sad world where we don’t trust pilots to be responsible enough to read the manual of their gadgets or ask anyone competent if they don’t understand it.

LSZK, Switzerland

…. if one adopts the position that GPS is somehow different then the only logical conclusion is a full type rating for every different type of panel mounted GPS (because they really are pretty different and mostly non-obvious).

Maybe not exactly “a full type rating” but we do require here in Australia a logbook “sign-off” for each “new” GNSS installation we intend to use during IFR ops. For example, G1000 must be singed-off separately from units of a G400/500 series.

Last Edited by ANTEK at 19 Nov 22:03
YSCB

Otherwise, it is slightly bizzare to require such training when tracking a GPS (LNAV) is just like tracking anything else…

If you look closely, there are a few differences. Most importantly, the monitoring of the signal quality can be very different for various installations, especially the older ones. For example where VOR/LOC display orange “NAV” flags, many GPS installations flash an amber “MSG” light somewhere else on the panel. Also, in many GPS installations (but not in all!) the deviation indicator shows distance, not angle as in VOR/LOC mode which is insignificant in the cruise but can be somewhat confusing in short final on an approach. Then, important stuff like “RAIM” requires some explaining for pilots who are not technically minded (in the world of commercial aviation, the majority are not!).

EDDS - Stuttgart
54 Posts
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top