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Is the UK legal to descend you below CAS and quietly remove the IFR clearance?

wbardorf wrote:

Yes, and a key point for VFR flyers as well is that one is subject to class E weather minima, which is 3 SM visibility and 500, 1000 and 2000 ft below/above/horizontal from clouds up to 10,000 ft MSL!

It would work if SFC-2100ft AMSL is Class G, and above that – Class E up to at least, say, 3000ft AMSL (under for example TMA). That way all VFR traffic can fly below that Class E, and you can also fly higher and also fly IFR if needed. IIRC Class E means that you can fly there with:
- no clearance VFR with mode S XPDR and
- with clearance IFR and VFR with mode A/C.

Class E looks like a solution, but not in the UK, for some reason.

EGTR

arj1 wrote:

IIRC Class E means that you can fly there with:
- no clearance VFR with mode S XPDR and
- with clearance IFR and VFR with mode A/C.

AFAIK there is no international requirement for any transponder as a function of being within Class E airspace. In the US you are generally required to have a Mode C transponder and ADS-B OUT at or above 10,000 ft. in Class E with no distinction based on ATC contact or not. This matches the IAS speed limit below 10,000 ft. There is no clearance requirement for any VFR in Class E.

Last Edited by Silvaire at 20 Jul 17:51

arj1 wrote:

IIRC Class E means that you can fly there with:
- no clearance VFR with mode S XPDR and
- with clearance IFR and VFR with mode A/C

Only if there is a TMZ associated with the class E.

In vanilla class E, it is no clearance for VFR.

Nympsfield, United Kingdom

Xtophe wrote:

Only if there is a TMZ associated with the class E.

In vanilla class E, it is no clearance for VFR.

Where did I see that? Air Law?
Sorry, can’t find it, so you are right – AIP clearly says IFR must be Mode S, nothing about the VFR in Class E with mode S.
Thanks!

EGTR

Were you thinking of UK Class E+ ?

Maoraigh
EGPE, United Kingdom

Maoraigh wrote:

Were you thinking of UK Class E+ ?

No, just Class E.
But, for some reason it was in my head that if your VFR and mode A/C you need clearance, mode S – you don’t. Looks I was wrong!

EGTR

Malibuflyer wrote:

The US handles this problem by having only very small lateral pieces of class G airspace (so that practically IFR flights happen in controlled airspace) with exceptions in quite remote areas where no-one really cares what pilots do…
In Germany for exactly that reason IFR in airspace G is practically impossible, because ATC won’t let you back in controlled airspace at all.

Isnt Germany like the US in this regard, ie it has Class E airspace above 1500ft or so, doesnt it?
I always though that Class E above a certain height was a very elegant solution to both IFR and VFR needs.

Regards, SD..

skydriller wrote:

Isnt Germany like the US in this regard, ie it has Class E airspace above 1500ft or so, doesnt it?
I always though that Class E above a certain height was a very elegant solution to both IFR and VFR needs.

Regards, SD..

Yes, that is correct, except that class E typically starts at 2500ft AGL, dropping down to 1700 or 1000ft near aerodromes:

Low-hours pilot
EDVM Hildesheim, Germany

skydriller wrote:

I always though that Class E above a certain height was a very elegant solution to both IFR and VFR needs

It’s a good compromise in my opinion as well but as with every compromise there’s also downsides:
- VFR traffic, esp. gliders, complains about cloud clearance requirements in class E (which is neccessary as IFR-traffic can drop out of Clouds everywhere).
- IFR traffic complains about class G on the ground with technically no legal way to transfer between G and E – and therefore if your CAA is very pedantic no possibility to take of from an airfield in class G under IFR.

Last Edited by Malibuflyer at 21 Jul 13:16
Germany

Malibuflyer wrote:

with technically no legal way to transfer between G and E

That is a German peculiarity caused by feet-dragging ATC and/or authority. There is nothing preventing a procedural IFR clearance in Class E below the MRVA, but the DFS does give any IFR clearances below the MRVA, which creates a “no mans land” band of Class E airspace that cannot legally be used in IMC.

Biggin Hill
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