In my series of flying IFR to/from the UK: I am trying to get to grips with the exotic flying IFR in class G airspace, and dealing with NATS in the meanwhile. I trying to picture the flight in a PA28-161. Do you help along?
I am planning a flight LFQQ-EGBJ. The router generates TRACA B3 RINTI L10 DVR Y803 SFD DCT GWC DCT PEPIS DCT NUBRI DCT CPT DCT KENET DCT MIMBI DCT SIREN DCT MALBY, which validates in Rocketroute at FL100. So far so good.
I am expecting TOC before leaving mainland, and therefore crossing into controlled airspace of London Control somewhere at RINTI, after Lille having had co-ordinated with London, right? I assume they will not throw me out of controlled airspace, right?
Somewhere at PEPIS, I leave class A airspace, but as I will cruise along Y321 and L9, I will still be in controlled airspace, and hence talking to London Control enjoying full radar service, right? I expect to start descent after KENET, sinking below the 9000 ft MEA of L9, I should expect to get bumped out of controlled airspace, and be passed to London Information, degraded to flight information, right? Near EGBJ, I should take initiative myself to switch to Gloster Approach, or will London switch me?
For the return flight, I’ll take EGBJ-EBKT. This route validates at FL090: MALBY L9 KONAN L607 MAK
After takeoff, I expect to be talking to Gloster Approach. Will they co-ordinate with London Control for airways clearance, or will they let me do the negotiation while in uncontrolled airspace on my way to MALBY? Will they really let me cruise at FL090 near London, or will I get vectored away from that busy airspace? Somewhere over the channel, they will pass me to Brussel Control. The rest is familiar.
Any advise, tips, … is welcome, thanks.
Niner Mike
On your way here London Control will descend you, tell you you are leaving controlled airspace in the descent and to contact Gloucester on XXX.XXX. You won’t need to deal with London info.
On your trip back, Gloucester will coordinate with London Control and hand you over. You will prob have vectors all the way to the coast.
Interesting Question. I have been at EGBJ last year coming from Colmar via M624 NIK L179 LAM DCT CPT L9 SIREN DCT EGBJ at FL140.
On the way London Control handed me over to Brize Radar which was very difficult to understand. I did not get so many heading changes before due to traffic, the zigzagging was really confusing and exhausting, I will never forget this flight. But they did not pass me to London Information.
I have more than 200hrs ifr (mainly in uk, france and italy) but I always used rocket route generator, and now I start asking myself how to build an ifr route without rocket route generator (and without the euroga autorouter for the moment). let’s suppose I’m looking for a short flight from EGKB to EGJJ. departure vfr and soon after departure becoming ifr till egjj. the question is: can I just list some ifr reporting points not connected by any airway ( provided they are less then 50nm apart), just separated by DCT in the plan, with the last one being of course an iaf for the star? if so, how do I know the minimum altitude I can file to fly this route ifr (on airways the mea is indicated, but what about outside airways)?
can I just list some ifr reporting points not connected by any airway, just separated by DCT in the plan
In the UK, chances are high that such a plan will be accepted by Eurocontrol. What NATS will do to it and whether you’ll be able to actually fly this is another matter.
NATS publishes a Standard Route Document which contains about 17000 airport (or intersections at the FIR/UIR boundary) pairs. Choosing a route out of it probably gives you the highest chance of being able to actually fly your plan.
For EGKB→EGJJ it lists:
DCT DET DCT LYD M189 NEVIL G27/UT220 ANGLO JSY* up to and including F200.
but what about outside airways
Eurocontrol doesn’t care, it will also accept underground flights.
You have to check a topo map to make sure you have enough ground clearance. Autorouter checks DCTs (and airways too, btw, since altitude on airways with an AGL limit isn’t checked correctly by Eurocontrol) against the SRTM30 elevation data to ensure adequate terrain clearance (1000’ below 5000’, 2000’ above, in a +-5 mile corridor)
Furthermore, in the UK, the lower you file, the higher the chances part or all of your route is in class G, and therefore you won’t get any service from NATS.
ValerioM use the SRD as that is your best chance of flying low level CTA IFR here.
thanks guys, wasn’t aware of the srd document
DCT DET DCT LYD M189 NEVIL G27/UT220 ANGLO JSY
The problem with the SRD is that is illustrates the near-uselessness of the UK airspace structure for IFR generally and of the above route specifically.
From Biggin EGKB to Jersey EGJJ, nobody wants to fly all the way down to Lydd first.
The way to do this is to depart from EGKB to the west, VFR (i.e. a Z flight plan), and change to IFR somewhere around MID, and then can work your way down to ORTAC and go to EGJJ the usual way. But you are then flying some distance at ~2300ft, just below the LTMA, and dodging GA traffic of which a lot is nontransponding so doesn’t show up on TCAS.
So some “street knowledge” is required for such a flight.
I don’t know of anybody who uses the UK SRD to actually work out whole routes.
Valerio – have you tried the autorouter? With the default parameters it fails, but as I have often said the default FL040 is no good for the UK. If you choose these settings:
you get (ignore the “host” option in the above screenshot)
Interesting Question. I have been at EGBJ last year coming from Colmar via M624 NIK L179 LAM DCT CPT L9 SIREN DCT EGBJ at FL140.
On the way London Control handed me over to Brize Radar which was very difficult to understand. I did not get so many heading changes before due to traffic, the zigzagging was really confusing and exhausting, I will never forget this flight. But they did not pass me to London Information.
I have had a similar “massive over-controlling in Class G” treatment from Brize.
As a result a lot of people don’t speak to Brize at all, and simply fly in the Class G around it which is far simpler.
Thanks for all the advise. I was not aware of the SRD.
However, it got me confused on the routing: when looking for a routing in the SRD from RINTI to EGBJ, I find this:
RINTI L10 DVR L9 MALBY DCT EGBJ
but I can’t get the Euroga router to construct a useful route with that, neither to validate. Rocketroute says “RS: TRAFFIC VIA DVR IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EGEB1000A] L9 KONAN BIG”.
Hmmm
Hello, I am wondering if my information on IFR flying in UK is correct.
Let’s assume I’m flying with a basic PA28 with an ILS, VOR and DME. No GPS.
I would like to conduct an IFR flight from A to B.
Am I right in saying that
1) I do not need to file a flightplan, if say I am not to go above FL80/90 and not entering any airways.
2) I can self declare I am IFR to any ATSU I contact, without any additional requirements (I understand I will be treated pretty much like VFR with OCAS/CAS scenarios)
3) ATC should be made aware (over the R/T) that I do not have GPS and cannot do “own navigation” to any IFR waypoints (despite having SD or Foreflight onboard?)
4) At best I can expect either VOR to VOR navigation, or else headings
5) request traffic service if possible when IMC
Anything else I should be looking out for or be doing?
Thanks,
TP
