Icing (merged threads)

I think there was very poor pilot decision making exhibited here.

Dumb: Rime ice is the worst and to let that much build before turning around is IMO very foolhardy.

Dumber: Then to go to an airport where you have to fly an approach in IMC with below freezing temps strikes me as very dumb.

Dumbest: Finally why land a contaminated plane when the ice was coming off at circuit altitude. A few laps around the airport and he would have had a clean wing.

If you are in a non FIKI light aircraft any ice is too much ice. Immediate action needs to be taken at the first indication you are picking up any ice.

If you are in a non FIKI light aircraft any ice is too much ice. Immediate action needs to be taken at the first indication you are picking up any ice.

I get your drift, as they say, but if that was applied rigorously all light GA would be grounded in the winter (except trivial local flights below the cloudbase) and IFR flight at Eurocontrol levels would be almost impossible.

Also, "FIKI" is not always meaningful. For example, a TB20 with full TKS is approved for icing conditions on a G-reg but not on an N-reg because the FAA requires a 2nd alternator and some other stuff. The actual anti-icing capability is the same.

It must also be time to open the weather sources (what constitutes a planned flight into known icing) discussion

Some aircraft can have more rime/mixed ice than others. A Cessna or Piper with some rime ice doesn't fall out of the sky, while a Cirrus cannot have a lot of ice. Another factor is the horse power you still have available to you. Can to counter the reduced performance with adding more power? What about alternate air? How easy is it turned on if needed.

Before flying the Cirrus SR22T with FIKI, I regularly flew the Piper Arrow III Turbo (no deicing equipment there) in winter time. Picking up some ice like in the above video was not immediatly a problem, but I needed to be very sure that I had a way to get rid of the ice, that is, be able to fly at a lower altitude above MSA with temps above zero to get rid of the ice-buildup.

Then, the ice-buildup can happen very quickly in some cases. In those cases, you have to act very fast and not continue to fly forward in the same icing conditions.

That all said, I enjoy having the full FIKI stuff available on my flights now.

I think the pilot had it pretty much figured out and continued like he did for demonstration purposes. The Bonanza handles ice quite well for a piston single without boots or TKS. From the video it looks like the airplane maintains 150 knots indicated with a 500' pr minute descend and ca 60-65% power input.

He also has ground contact at 6000 feet.

The trouble with ice is that it is so variable. I mostly fly in the Pacific NorthWest area of North America. This area is notorious for icing conditions and Airbus actually comes over to do natural icing testing.

Despite that during almost all of my flights in cloud with below freezing weather ( always in a FIKI aircraft), I either picked up no ice or just very small amounts. Occasionally I would see heavier icing but an immediate altitude change or route deviation would quickly reduce or eliminate the icing buildup.

But I had one flight in a Navajo coming from central British Columbia West to Vancouver when in 8 miles I went from no ice to more than 4 inches of ice, the boots completely overwhelmed and Cruise power/170 kts IAS to Max power/105 kts. I was already at the IFR minimum altitude but 8 miles ahead was the airway fix which would allow me to descent to above freezing air, and when I first started picking up ice it wasn't that bad. Unfortunately after about a minute the rate of accumulation just became insane. Since it did not start out too bad I figured I would just carry it to the step down.

If the step down had been 4 more miles further I don't think I would have made it, as the aircraft was already descending at full power and minimum controllable airspeed when I hit the fix.

If Buddy had been in his Bonanza in the same place he would have been splattered all over the hillside. What are the chances that he would not hit a patch of nasty icing flying through cloud on his way home or on the ILS above the freezing level in IMC ? Pretty low but not even close to zero. He may be ready to take the risk, but I sure am not.

I occasionally fly a friends very nicely equiped, but non deiced Cessna 210. The rule I use on cold days is I will climb into cloud to get on top it the deck is less than 5000 feet high and I can return to assured VMC conditions if I have to get back down, and I am flying toward an area of better weather.

The older I get the wider the yellow stripe down my back gets. Even FIKI is no guarantee that you can fly in icing conditions but even in the worst icing it will give you time and options that are just not there in non deiced airplanes.

I agree with everything you say about icing but look at the video.

The flying sequence starts with the pilot stating that he knows it's warmer air behind him. He then turns around and goes back to where he came from.

Shortly after that (04:27) the video shows him at 6k feet with unobstructed view to the ground, which makes it possible for him to be 1000 feet above ground and 100% VFR within 2-3 minutes should he need to.

This is close to a "by the book" escape.

I wonder how many of the negative responders on this thread actually took the time to apreciate what was really going on in the video before posting.

Beech Flyer

I noticed he did not include the IMC above the freezing level ILS he flew? And why make a landing with a contaminated wing when he could have done a few laps in the circuit to let the ice melt ?

I don't know. Maybe he is familiar with the A36 and ice and concidered it to be a no risk landing. I have really no idea.

My point is that none of us know for sure so rather than assuming that he is "dumb" we should give him the benefit of the doubt.

My experience is that when pilots that have been hammered on various forums get a change to explain their decitions and also fill in accurate details, their actions suddenly are not so stupid anymore.

My view, FWIW, is that in this case the pilot was a bit too relaxed and was not watching the airspeed, and was totally caught out when the plane (flown on the autopilot) stalled and rolled over. Then, him being totally caught out by this, he didn’t recover back to some sort of controlled descent, and pulled the wing(s) off during the attempted recovery.

When flying in potential icing conditions, one needs to be watching all the “stuff” like a hawk, and have some sort of “action threshold”. I don’t know what the recommendations are for a TBM, as to what level of ice buildup one is supposed to capitulate.

But since they all got killed we will never know.

Also you can get really fast icing. I have had ~30mm in 5 minutes and that would bring down just about any less than reasonably powerful GA plane. The TB20 was unable to maintain level flight even at full power and with a deiced prop. That was not even freezing rain; that was smooth stratus…