Rwy20 wrote:
Your example Helgoland is classified as a Verkehrslandeplatz, so they have to operate during the published hours. What did you do then?
circled until he answered – I had sufficient fuel to circle for around 30 minutes, then I would have diverted. Under no circumstances would I land at a German airfield without a Flugleiter responding unless the AIP specifically states that landings can be made without a Flugleiter or to not do so would endanger my aircraft – i.e., called PPR, got there but no response, insufficient fuel to go elsewhere. However in the last situation, I’d expect the BR to come down on me for poor planning as my flight obviously didn’t take into consideration the potential need to divert……
next time please do “Blind Position Reports” fly a traffic pattern and land … it is an uncontrolled VFR airfield and the weather was good enough to see other traffic. Make decisions by your own – as pilots we do not need a Flugleiter … No one wants you to crash land off airfield low on fuel after circling and diverting because of no radio contact.
nobbi wrote:
next time please do “Blind Position Reports” fly a traffic pattern and land … it is an uncontrolled VFR airfield and the weather was good enough to see other traffic. Make decisions by your own – as pilots we do not need a Flugleiter … No one wants you to crash land off airfield low on fuel after circling and diverting because of no radio contact.
Ok, let’s say you do this, land at an airfield where the Flugleiter is missing and those nice gentlemen from the Bezirksregierung just happened to be there? I actually had this discussion with two gents from the BR Münster a few weeks after the issue with Helgoland and they who told me that if I cannot demonstrate that I know a sachkundige Person is there, then I can be charged with landing at a closed aerodrome*. I argued with them asking how can I prove that a sachkundige person is there, when I’m flying and no-one answers? You can’t. However if you have asked for (and gained) PPR, then the BR will accept that you have done your part to ensure that a sachkundige Person was there and there will be no further action. But – as with everything with the BR, there is a BUT – the PPR approval would have to be in WRITTEN form and let’s be honest, when was the last time you sent an email asking for and gaining PPR when a phone call is quicker??
* → this would be construed as committing a misdemeanour under § 22 Abs. 1 LuftVO and according to § 43 Nr. 26 LuftVO, this offence can be punished with a fine of up to 50000 Euros.
But under any normal circumstance, the airfield operator would confirm your story, i.e. confirm to the authorities that you did have PPR. And then there is enough demonstration.
Any operator would do that, otherwise he would be a damn lier.
In other words, he would admit to his “mistake” (flat battery on the radio, whatever).
The point is different one: even if you can prove you had PPR (in written form if you like), that still doesn’t definirely mean there was a sachkundige Person at the airfield. The Flugleiter might have had an accident on his way to the airfield for example. So, the above logic by the Münster guy (bloody folks…) doesn’t make much sense.
if you experience a radiocom failure on an IFR flight you have two options. The first is always " If in VMC … land in VMC and report your arrival …" etc. So if I were on an IFR flight over the Northsea and had a confirmed radio failure and I would see the Island of Helgoland down below I would land there ( aircraft performance permitting 
) . And sure I would land without a PPR. And that is the safer action in my opinion than to continue IFR to e.g. Hamburg mixing up all the approach traffic of an international airport upon arrival. And that is the intention behind the ICAO and National Radio Com Failure Procedures. Nowhere is written that one needs third level approval for a pilot’s decision in an admittedly rare case. I would not even want to know what some administration guys working on a job creation scheme in Muenster think about it. And I’m convinced they would never succeed in court.
Does AOPA Germany do anything to try and change these crazy rules in Germany?
Is there any other country that legally requires someone to be present on the airfield for a landing to be legal?
Why aren’t German pilots kicking up a fuss about this?
Does AOPA Germany do anything to try and change these crazy rules in Germany?
Not really, Colm. There was a movement to get there about 6 or 7 years ago, but then, in the end, there was a general ruling against it by the ministry of transport and that killed all the momentum for years.
Is there any other country that legally requires someone to be present on the airfield for a landing to be legal?
In Austria, the rules are similar. No surprise, if you look from which era these rules originate from…
Why aren’t German pilots kicking up a fuss about this?
Because they have been used to it for generations. To the contrary: for many of them, it sounds totally irresponsible to land at an airfield where there is no Flugleiter to oversee and regulate the traffic.
If you made a referendum among german pilots as to whether the mandate for the Flugleiter is to be abolished, it wouldn’t be certain that it will be won. As I said, pilots over here have been conditioned over decades to ibey the words of the Flugleiter, even at tiny grass strips in the middle of nowhere.
boscomantico wrote:
Because they have been used to it for generations. To the contrary: for many of them, it sounds totally irresponsible to land at an airfield where there is no Flugleiter to oversee and regulate the traffic.
And yet, a few weeks ago a German pilot was shameless enough to pretend departing from LFPN on a day without ATS and unable to speak French… I think they would get used to it in a hurry!
If you made a referendum among german pilots …
Hum hum. Schau mal hier. eben wen das nur die blöden Ultraleichter sind:
pro: 41
con: 241
And yet, a few weeks ago a German pilot was shameless enough to pretend departing from LFPN on a day without ATS and unable to speak French…
I think that many oeople get caught out with sometimes a bit restricted operating hours ATS at those place. Add to this rapidly changing schedules due to strikes etc. and then, pilots just want to get out of there and do it.
But yes, there is no excuse. Departures are particularly easy; almost everybody can say “[Airfield name], [Call sign], decollage piste [number], départ en direction [nord / sud / ouest / est]”
