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Icing conditions and winter flying

Ok, another thread about icing ;)

I am a low-time IFR-pilot, no such much experience with Icing and really scared of encountering it. Been talking with some other much more experienced pilots at the club. Heard a lot of “war-stories” about how much ice they have carried while flying ;)

Asked how they fly SEP with no-deicing options IFR in the winter when it is IMC.

The usual reply is more or less: Clouds around here rarely go over 5000-6000’. Fly above the clouds! With an airplane such the PA32 (260-300hp) you can penetrate cloud layers on the way up and down, and if some ice buildup you wont have any big issues to carry that ice.

Is this a common view or practice? Old school? Insane? Hot subject? I don’t know if all pilots would admit that they fly into icing-conditions without de-icing equipment.

Would you do a cloud break in icing conditions? Under what circumstances?

Jonas

Last Edited by Jonas at 25 Nov 13:00
ESOW Västerås, Sweden

Heard a lot of “war-stories” about how much ice they have carried while flying ;)

Advice #1: Have your coffee at Starbucks, preferably one that is far away from the next airfield.

The usual reply is more or less: Clouds around here rarely go over 5000-6000’.

Advice #2: (see # 1)

;-)

Jonas wrote:

The usual reply is more or less: Clouds around here rarely go over 5000-6000’. Fly above the clouds! With an airplane such the PA32 (260-300hp) you can penetrate cloud layers on the way up and down, and if some ice buildup you wont have any big issues to carry that ice.

It all depends on the weather. It is true that you can enter icing conditions — when you have a way out! The problem in winter is that the freezing level is below ground so descending might stop the ice accretion but it will not help you to get rid of the ice.

Of course there is no rule that clouds don’t go over 5000-6000 but when you know that they don’t (PIREP, satellite image), then you can use that strategy although unless you have a strong turbo, 5000ft of icing can be enough to reduce your climb rate to zero. Once you are in VMC, ice sublimates over time meaning you get rid of it during the enroute phase even when it’s very cold.

It’s a fact that you cannot avoid icing altogether, every IFR pilot gets it so it’s something to deal with. When I have a good way out, I have no problem testing a cloud for icing. Apart from your way out, the other vital principle is that when you get ice accretion, you have to do something about it. Watching and hoping for it to end is not the right strategy.

Jonas wrote:

Would you do a cloud break in icing conditions? Under what circumstances?

Virtually all but not all. When you have very wet Cu clouds in the terminal area and over several thousand feet, then I’d stay way. Otherwise go for it, if necessary advice ATC that you are not prepared to level off and need a speedy descent.

Last Edited by achimha at 25 Nov 13:16

The usual reply is more or less: Clouds around here rarely go over 5000-6000’.

But sometimes, especially during approaches, you have to fly at this kind of altitude for quite some time. The only time when I came really close to falling out of the sky was in Sweden on an approach into Bromma with a non-deiced light twin. Once it had packed up some ice we couldn’t even have climbed back into clean air because there simply was’t any climbing capacity left.

Don’t fly in icing conditions when you have nothing to fight the ice with. Very simple.

EDDS - Stuttgart

The usual reply is more or less: Clouds around here rarely go over 5000-6000’.

Really? Where in Sweden is that?
I just saw this thread and jumped into flygmet and took today’s chart over scandinavia:
Sweden:
BKN/OVC ST/SC
012-060
001-010

BKN/AC
110-XXX
050-080

0 degrees at 2500.

And this is just today. So good luck at flying in this soup without deicing.

EKRK, Denmark

As said – key thing is an escape route.

Its not a bravado thing nor war story but in a previous job we operated year round (including winter) in a piston twin with boots and electrically heated props and we spent a HUGE amount of time in icing. Sure we used the boots etc but on older aircraft depending on the day and the severity of the icing you are just going to end up flying with some amount of ice. The key again is to have an out. Regularly we would see our airspeed decreasing and start descending or climbing to get out of the worst of it (sometime a small change in temperature/level will have a big difference on ice, I am sure anyone with experience of icing could agree that there are times when you think you will pick up a lot and get none and times when you expect none and get a lot!). It was always an option for us to divert en-route due to ice despite it being a commercial operation, because it better to be somewhere else en-route than somewhere dead. We tended to use both visual inspection of ice build up and even more so airspeed as an indication as to how bad thing were. The situation to be avoided at all costs was to end up below at/blue line speed just to maintain MSA.

Reason for mentioning this is that normally it is said that sustained flight in icing conditions is not to be done, and it’s not exactly bad advice or incorrect, but with planning, escape routes (more than one preferably) and the right airplane (something with at least a bit of de-icing equipment) you can do it, and there are more than a few commercial operators in the UK and the rest of Europe doing it every day. It is very true though that the risk exposure is increased.

United Kingdom

Clouds around here rarely go over 5000-6000’.

If one of their planes come up for sale, discount the price by the cost of a new engine. Not an overhaul because the existing one will have 1cm of rust inside

Trip to Sweden recently

The return flight has plenty of IMC to FL190, and above in places.

“Low level” stratus cloud is often say 2000ft base, 6000ft tops, but that’s only on “nice” days. And yes usually you can climb through that and pick up only say a few mm of ice which is OK for almost any reasonably powerful certified aircraft. I do that all the time. But my worst ice encounter… see post #18 here That one took place in exactly such conditions. Had I just climbed up I would have been OK. The problem is that you may be flying a procedure where you are stuck at some level, and on that occassion I was stuck at 3200ft (800ft or so below the tops).

But stratus cloud can exist in mid levels e.g. tops FL100-150. That is actually very common at any time of the year.

And if the temps are against you, you could have a 8000-10000ft thick icing layer which you probably won’t climb up through unless you have de-ice. You can get lucky and not pick any up, and if say the surface temp is +6C and the cloudbase is say 3000ft, then you have a viable plan B which is to abandon the flight and descend, at a nice descent speed at which control is maintained despite the ice, melt it off and either have another go at climbing or just land. I have not yet had to do abandon a flight but I have plenty of times had to stop a climb and go back down a bit, or even descend enroute to a bit below the 0C level – possible if there is no terrain So terrain comes into it of course.

So… to deal with ice you either need to pick the conditions carefully (usually this means SCT cloud at both ends of the trip OR > +3C (or so) surface temp so you don’t land with ice you picked up on the way down) or you need a plane which is fully de-iced so it can hang around there for as long as it takes to fly the procedure.

That is putting it simply but is basically what you can do to stay safe.

And yes it does limit what one can do in “light GA” especially in the winter. In some cases one can break this if the surface temp is so low that icing is very unlikely by the time you reach the cloudbase – e.g. here

One always needs a Plan B. I have known many pilots who say “ice is not a problem” but it’s only a matter of time before one hears of one or more of them having some near death experience (not necessarily posted on a forum, or sometimes posted and quickly deleted).

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Jonas wrote:

I am a low-time IFR-pilot, no such much experience with Icing and really scared of encountering it.

I can say the first part about myself. Since I got my ticket I’ve been flying IFR roughly 150 hours with about half of it in IMC but at positive temperatures. This year is my first winter season. I fly with TKS on the wings and for the propeller.

If possible I try to stay VMC. That is an advice given frequently here. On one flight I didn’t want to climb higher than FL190 and stayed in a very thin layer of very cold moisture. After a good while the alternate air door opened. Probably the air filter was clogged. So climbing higher would have been smarter and the sight would have been better – although I don’t mind just seeing white in front of me.

This Monday I had a night flight into Nuremberg EDDN. I came from far away at FL150 and was taken to lower levels in several steps. At about FL80 I entered cloud and ice started to show up at an OAT of -8C. The approach controller had me fly level for maybe 3 minutes at 6000ft before turning me onto the localizer and down to 4000ft. The clouds were BKN down to 1400ft and then clear. Surface temperature was 2C. So I kept the TKS running on the normal setting until short final to clear all remnants that might have been sitting somewhere on wings or elevator.

As I have about 45 minutes of fluid available I don’t mind being vectored around for a few minutes given that I will land within probably at most 15 minutes. Of course I keep an eye out the windshield and onto the wings during level flight. I also try to keep the airspeed up. In my case going 150-160 IAS works quite well and is helpful in terminal areas with CAT.

As soon as I’m established and before putting out the flaps at 120 IAS I have checked the wings again. After crossing the FAF and following the GS down there is a short quite moment to do that.

When I had ice on the wings for the first time earlier this year I was a bit excited. It was a mix between cautious tension and joy that I can now learn first hand :-) If I remember correctly it occurred at FL90 with plenty of warm air below. I believe it was in May. The SR22TN climbed through it and probably two minutes later I was on top. I even took pictures and I believe they are on here somewhere.

To me that is a topic that should be dealt with as rational as possible and avoiding it and getting out of it asap is good advice.

Frequent travels around Europe

I think you have it all under control, Stephan. I wish i had enough reason to do more flights like you do them!
I have less ice experience than you … although i had the IR since 2002!

A reason for travel is a reason for flying. I feel lucky.

Frequent travels around Europe
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