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Eurocontrol IFR departure from an untowered field

Here in The Netherlands you file a Z flight plan, and then, before departing, call a number on your mobile to get the IFR Clearance. They will give you a clearance like: Cleared to destination Le Touquet. Squawk 7012. Climb to altitude 1500 or below on qnh 1002. Remain VFR. After Departure Contact Schiphol Approach on 119.05. Schiphol Approach will then identify you and open IFR.

Sorry, but to me this sounds like it is precisely not an IFR clearance ("remain VFR"), and that the IFR clearance will be issued by Approach. Don't get me wrong, this is much getter than taking-off with nothing, but IMHO it does not clear you IFR (yet).

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

to avoid this=People have flown into terrain while waiting for their IFR clearance... and reach legal the MRVA and get a IFR clearance

EDAZ

One 1 meter from the ground I am flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace and climbing to CAS with a clearance to enter it (got it on the ground). The issue is to depart IFR from the uncontrolled airfield as departing VFR while IMC conditions prevail at the aerodrome is not legal. Departing IFR from the same airfield seems legal to me. Landing IFR anywhere requires so far as I know an airfield with instrument procedures and you have to abide to the published minima, which are landing minima, not departure minima.

EDLE, Netherlands

Why would you not be able to ask Ifr clearence while still on the ground ... via the radio?

Well, often the approach frequency is not available when on the ground or flying low. Sometimes it is like at Lyon-Bron you can just contact the Exupery controller on the radio as the airport is a few km away. At Reims-Prunay you have to call with your phone to Paris-Orly for a clearance. On the ground the frequency will not be available.

EDLE, Netherlands

In most European "unmanned tower" scenarios you will be out of VHF range of anybody.

And similarly the phone number which would get you a provisional clearance (in the UK, typically, "squawk XXXX, remain OCAS, contact London Control on yyy.yy") is not published, though there are rumours that some pilots know it.

I am based at a towered airport so don't have an issue right now, but at past times there were options for an out of hours departure. Those options are sadly gone, due to abuse by particular pilots.

Also, the issue is not necessarily the time it takes the get the IFR clearance. That can be an issue if you suddenly need one (a "popup clearance") on a VFR flight, but the issue following an untowered departure tends to be that the only frequency you can contact is an FIS one - in the UK, London Information - and they cannot issue the clearance. They have to get it from somebody else and that can take time. Anything from minutes to half an hour, in my experience.

Popup clearances can also take vital time (and people have crashed while waiting - look up N2195B who used to share my hangar) but all cases I know of involved instrument rated pilots (fairly obviously, since you need very big balls to request an IFR clearance otherwise) who IMHO should not have been flying "VFR" in the first place. In some cases they were PROB99 flying "VFR" because their plane was over 2000kg so liable for route charges...

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

As for the Netherlands I just received an answer from DutchMil. They simply refer to the AIP which specifies per aerodrome the kind of operations allowed (VFR/IFR/night/day). Looking up the "green" fields I see that IFR operaitons are not allowed. That is the answer I was waiting for. The AIP prohibits departing IFR from a "green" field.

EDLE, Netherlands

The AIP prohibits departing IFR from a "green" field.

I don't know why they bother prohibiting it, because in JAA-land "VFR" required 3000m vis, now it is 1500m vis (as an example of what 1500m is like, you struggle to see the start of the runway when at the MAP on a typical nonprecision IAP) and since presumably any 500ft rule is exempted for takeoff or landing, people will be departing "VFR".

And I assume you can file a Z flight plan (VFR to IFR).

So you just needs to be clear of cloud during the portion where somebody might be watching you, which is the first mile or two.

Did I get that right?

The UK doesn't bother regulating stuff like that. You can file an "I" flight plan from any farm strip, and disappear straight into IMC.

And, in a G-reg anyway, you can land with a DIY IAP. In an N-reg that is presumed to be illegal, due to 91.175.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

And I assume you can file a Z flight plan (VFR to IFR).

So you just needs to be clear of cloud during the portion where somebody might be watching you, which is the first mile or two.

Did I get that right?

Yes, that is how you do IFR from untowered fields in Germany. Once you disappear in the clouds at 200ft AGL, you issue a "between the layers now, VMC" over the radio and get back a "yeah, right"

Flight visibility is defined as visibility from the cockpit and you are about the only one that can determine it which puts you on the safe side. As to whether you are inside clouds, that is also very hard to determine from the ground due to several layers appearing as a single layer.

I always wondered how Engelsbach operates

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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