I might be wrong, but don’t Lufthansa put their pilots through recurring aerobatic training? I think I read that in connection with the Airfrance accident (as they clearly don’t)
I think it makes a lot of sense and while I agree that a jet or anything remotely similar should stay well away from unusual attitudes, the point is that even they sometimes find themselves at the limit. I think that what you learn most of all is to listen to the plane and feel what is going on.
The F33C is still used by Lufthansa, I believe, despite being twenty plus years old.
….and here’s a beautiful example with only one careful German driver…
http://www.planecheck.com?ent=da&id=24986
Now what did I do with the kids’ inheritance?
I can’t speak for others, but I got my aerobatic rating last summer in a R2160. It doesn’t make me a better pilot but it doesn’t hurt either. I have learned a lot of interesting things and it was great fun.
mmgreve wrote:
I might be wrong, but don’t Lufthansa put their pilots through recurring aerobatic training?
As far as I know this was a voluntary thing during their initial training. I know a couple of Lufthansa pilots who didn’t do it. As of now, there is no aerobatic type in their training fleet. And if the present rumors have some truth in them, they may shut down their flight training department in the near future anyway.
It’s much the same as having driven car or motorbike on a racetrack; until you’ve done it you have no idea what it’s actually like to explore or even exceed the envelope or know how well you will cope.
No-one can say with certainty that they will never find the self in an unusual attitude and being able to recognise it and know what to do about it without panicking is a sure life-saver in my opinion.
It doesn’t make me a better pilot but it doesn’t hurt either. I have learned a lot of interesting things and it was great fun.
Are you sure about the first part? The second sentence says you learnt a lot, which in itself, should make you a better pilot?
The answer to the Peter’s original Q is surely “yes” and I don’t think you will find many pilots who have done an aerobatics course but say that it neither improved their flying skills nor their technical knowledge.
Some people told me that I should take aerobatics lessons because it would make me a safer pilot.
I personally don’t have any interest in flying aerobatics, but I also fail to see how it would make me a safer pilot.
If you’re in a situation were only aerobatic skills can safe you… How did you get into that situation in the first place???
Isn’t preventing that you get into such a situation is where it’s all about? Proper planning, training emergencies in your own aircraft and stick to the numbers…
what_next wrote:
. For my flying, aerobatic training will not make the least difference. No living person can tell how the things I fly behave when operated far outside their envelope so my flying must be about keeping them within that envelope
I disagree for two reasons. The first is that no simulator can replicate the physical sensations involved in an upset, which can be very disorienting. Exposure to how they feel in a real aircraft will help you overcome the startle factor.
The second is that no matter how well trained you are, you may find yourself in an upset. A wake turbulence encounter in a bizjet could leave you very rapidly upset – a colleague of mine in the Lear ended up banked over to 80° with the nose dropping rapidly after hitting a 767’s wake in the London TMA.
I would also recommend regular exposure to the unusual attitude decluttering in the sim if you have a glass cockpit as it is not as intuitive as the designers think.
lenthamen wrote:
If you’re in a situation were only aerobatic skills can safe you… How did you get into that situation in the first place???
A friend’s Bellanca was flipped inverted by turbulence a few months ago. Mountains and wind aren’t totally predictable, nor is wake turbulence, and I think every once in a great while something unpredicted happens regardless of pre-flight preparations. He kept it rolling in the same direction and recovered.
Josh wrote:
… a colleague of mine in the Lear ended up banked over to 80° with the nose dropping rapidly after hitting a 767’s wake in the London TMA.
Yes. This is why we do the “unusual attitudes” training in a simulator every year. And the “high altitude upset” training. But this is not really like aerobatics at all. Instead it is: recognize an unusual attitude from what your instruments (!) tell you and bring the aircraft back to normal flight. No aerobatics training is required to do that. Our company right now operates 12 jets with 30 contract pilots and some freelancers. I only know one among all these guys (and ladies) who has aerobatic experience. Are we other all bad pilots?
Josh wrote:
I would also recommend regular exposure to the unusual attitude decluttering in the sim if you have a glass cockpit as it is not as intuitive as the designers think.
Certainly! But again, this has nothing to do with aerobatics. This is basic system knowledge and instrument flying skills. Having been taught to perform half-cubans and Lomcovaks will not help you much when it comes to interpret an unusual instrument presentation.
