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Channel Crossing (merged thread)

Even without a fully-feathering prop, you can still reduce prop drag by pulling the prop rpm out to make it as coarse as possible….apparently the improvement is significant….

Too bad if you have fixed pitch of course…but even in both cases I understand it is better to stop the prop wind-milling if possible (by raising the nose momentarily)….sort of counter intuitive I suppose, but that’s what I’m told…

Last Edited by AnthonyQ at 01 Jun 10:30
YPJT, United Arab Emirates

Departing Guernsey yesterday afternoon and talking to Approach I requested FL80 and got “cleared VFR to the northern zone boundary not above altitude 2,000 feet”

Getting towards the northern tip of the island I requested further climb and was told again not above 2,000 feet. I told him firmly that I wasn’t crossing the channel at that altitude and would like to orbit until he could negotiate with Jersey Control to get me higher. After one orbit he offered me 4,000 feet but with vectors taking me off track. I took it, and then a few minutes later he passed me to Jersey Control where again there was some ‘debate’ before clearance to a sensible altitude could be obtained.

I thought this was extremely poor – trying to get us to head out to the north as low as 2,000 feet and I don’t think he’d have ever have coordinated for higher unless I’d pressed the issue. A more timid pilot might easily have just accepted it.

Perhaps it is VFR vs IFR? On the way in the day before I requested IFR into the zone at FL80 and vectors for the ILS – wasn’t a problem at all and the service was perfect.

Sunday was not helped by a French club flyout with a load of poor-ELP pilots causing Guernsey Tower and Approach a lot of problems. One of them infringed the Sark protected area (or came very close to it and had to be vectored away) and at least one got lost between frequencies. They wasted a lot of everyone’s time – several aircraft sat on the ground for ages with engines running because they couldn’t read back their clearances properly and needed several goes to get them right. To be honest, they didn’t seem to realise that they had to read stuff back.

What would you say if ATC tried to get you to cross the channel at low level in an SEP?

Last Edited by Graham at 13 May 09:53
EGLM & EGTN

I would agree. It’s poor ATC. They MUST know it’s a safety of flight issue for pilots to be cleared to some decent altitude. Well done on insisting.

The CTR (class D) is up to FL80, and the TMA (class A) is FL80 and above. So, even if you are VFR, they should be able clear you up, closer to FL80.

Last Edited by boscomantico at 13 May 09:52
Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

They frequently want you VFR in general below CTA and TMA there to ease their job, so they try to force you below 2500ft all way. What was the old channel crossing altitude, I think it was VFR 3500ft one way?

Germany

It’s Class D CTR SFC-FL80 and Class A TMA above FL80.

I understand that when two classes of airspace meet the boundary is defined as the least restrictive of the two, meaning in this case that FL80 is in Class D. They certainly let me in at FL80 on Saturday, but I did request IFR on that occasion and I suppose they were not to know that I’m not qualified to fly IFR in Class A.

There is no way I would cross at 3,500 feet, let alone 2,000 feet. There just isn’t much time for anything at that sort of level if you have a problem with the engine. I would want time to set up my glide, decide which direction I’m heading (boats, islands, etc.) make a good Mayday call with accurate position information, understand which helicopters and which lifeboats are launching right now, from where, and when we can expect them on scene, brief passengers properly, tidy the cabin, etc. And of course, spend some time trying to restart the engine!

At 2,000 feet there will be no time for any of that. It’ll be trim for glide, choose a spot, brief mayday call, a quick “good luck everyone” to the passengers and then ditch.

Of course it depends how you glide, and the TB10 is not a glider.

EGLM & EGTN

We have the same problem here with the Holyhead CTA. I heard Ronaldsway trying to get a clearance for someone into it the other day, and having to relay back that it had been denied leaving the pilot either below 4500 on the long crossing or having to route to avoid it. The frequency was quiet so the controller and the pilot discussed it a little – the pilot complained that he has never got a clearance for it, and Ronaldsway explaining there wasn’t an awful lot they could do because it was someone else’s airspace, and Ronaldsway has only ever managed to obtain a clearance for someone crossing it, not flying along it.

It was changed from class A to C to allow for safer, higher, GA crossings of the Irish Sea. So much for that. (Especially as it seems the UK ANO actually bans VFR in class C, contrary to SERA and ICAO).

Andreas IOM

Should have told him you are happy with a scenery tour at 1500ft of the south of the isle while the other traffic goes away?
Looked like a win-win but I was disappointed when Jersey come back with cleared for 3500ft as we were in the middle of the tour

Last Edited by Ibra at 13 May 10:58
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

got “cleared VFR to the northern zone boundary not above altitude 2,000 feet”

AFAIK that is just lazy ATC, separating you from the “professional pilots” flying a bit higher up in the twin turboprop commuter planes

The solution is to become a “professional pilot” too (get an IR) Suddenly, the whole world changes.

What would you say if ATC tried to get you to cross the channel at low level in an SEP?

Most of the English Channel is Class G up to 5500ft or higher, so if I get nobody useful (or get London Info which is similar… no official radar ) I just fly across at 5300ft. This is for Eurocontrol IFR too, since London Control refuses these if below FL080 or so. That gives me about 5 mins to ditching which is enough.

One could climb to say FL073 (below the FL075 bits) but it takes only one distraction on the way to the UK and any bust there sends you straight to the Gasco £400 hotel session. I spoke to someone 2 days ago who said two people he knew got sent there on a first offence, and that wasn’t even the LTMA. I reckon on say a 3rd time in some years they will bust you seriously (licensing / re-doing the PPL). It looks like some big changes happened recently. One has to be extremely bloody careful around UK CAS now and not even nip a corner for a moment (or do what most do and fly non TXP, which is a PITA).

They frequently want you VFR in general below CTA and TMA there to ease their job, so they try to force you below 2500ft all way. What was the old channel crossing altitude, I think it was VFR 3500ft one way?

Hmmm, no, “Markuus”.

The TMAs are Class A, btw…

I understand that when two classes of airspace meet the boundary is defined as the least restrictive of the two,

The UK doesn’t operate that system, unfortunately. We did that here before e.g. here. Flying at CAS base is busting CAS.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

2000 is fine for me. There are a lot of cities that require flying over densely populated areas at 700-1000 feet for 10+ minutes.. If I don’t trust my plane over water where I endager nobody, how can I possibly fly over cities @1000?

EETU, Estonia

Crikey. I don’t fly over cities at that sort of height, nor the sea…

EGLM & EGTN
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