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VFR flight planning issues

I wonder what happened to @Hunnicat? Has the process changed in the intervening years to make it work better for ATC?

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Aviathor wrote:

Arne wrote:
(danish sounds like russian to me)
You must be Swedish!
Almost. It’s complicated.

ESMK, Sweden

Thanks for all of that @boscomantico

In most of Europe, there are no prescriptions on how your describe your route and whether you fly along airways or you just oick some random points and connect them with a DCT designator. Flying outside ATS routes (aka airways) is perfectly allowed and in fact is the norm for VFR flights.

ICAO Appendix 2 of Doc4444 (and then also SERA) says, regarding VFR flightplans:

Flights outside designated ATS routes

INSERT points normally not more than 30 minutes flying time or 370 km (200 NM) apart, including each point at which a change of speed or level, a change of track, or a change of flight rules is planned.

OR, when required by appropriate ATS authority(ies)

DEFINE the track of flights operating predominantly in an east-west direction between 70°N and 70°S by reference to significant points formed by the intersections of half or whole degrees of latitude with meridians spaced at intervals of 10 degrees of longitude. For flights operating in areas outside those latitudes the tracks shall be defined by significant points formed by the intersection of parallels of latitude with meridians normally spaced at 20 degrees of longitude. The distance between significant points shall, as far as possible, not exceed one hour’s flight time. Additional significant points shall be established as deemed necessary.

For flights operating predominantly in a north-south direction, define tracks by reference to significant points formed by the intersection of whole degrees of longitude with specified parallels of latitude which are spaced at 5 degrees

INSERT DCT between successive points unless both points are defined by geographical coordinates or by bearing and distance.

USE ONLY the conventions in (1) to (5) below and SEPARATE each sub-item by a space.

(1) ATS route (2 to 7 characters)

The coded designator assigned to the route or route segment including, where appropriate, the coded designator assigned to the standard departure or arrival route (e.g. BCN1, Bl, R14, UB10, KODAP2A).

Note.— Provisions for the application of route designators are contained in Annex 11, Appendix 1, while guidance material on the application of an RNP type to a specific route segment(s), route(s) or area is contained in the Performance-based Navigation Manual (Doc 9613).

* (2) Significant point (2 to 11 characters)

The coded designator (2 to 5 characters) assigned to the point (e.g. LN, MAY, HADDY),

or, if no coded designator has been assigned, one of the following ways:

— Degrees only (7 characters)

2 figures describing latitude in degrees, followed by “N” (North) or “S” (South), followed by 3 figures describing longitude in degrees, followed by “E” (East) or “W” (West). Make up the correct number of figures, where necessary, by insertion of zeros, e.g. 46N078W.

— Degrees and minutes (11 characters):

4 figures describing latitude in degrees and tens and units of minutes followed by “N” (North) or “S” (South), followed by 5 figures describing longitude in degrees and tens and units of minutes, followed by “E” (East) or “W” (West). Make up the correct number of figures, where necessary, by insertion of zeros, e.g. 4620N07805W

Bearing and distance from a navigation aid:

The identification of the navigation aid (normally a VOR), in the form of 2 or 3 characters, THEN the bearing from the aid in the form of 3 figures giving degrees magnetic, THEN the distance from the aid in the form of 3 figures expressing nautical miles. Make up the correct number of figures, where necessary, by insertion of zeros — e.g. a point 180° magnetic at a distance of 40 nautical miles from VOR “DUB” should be expressed as DUB180040

Last Edited by boscomantico at 25 Jun 03:31
Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

Question on this topic…
I’m not an expert at anything wrt aviation, so this thread has been eye-opening for me.
I currently only fly VFR, and would like to make sure my FLP’s are not rejected.

Can I simply use designated points from airways in a sequence that does not follow the airways themselves?
I don’t want to do the zigzag of IFR FLP’s, but I don’t mind using their turning points as points along my route…

If that makes sense, is it ok? Or will my FLP’s be kicked for not following the proper routes?
Thanks

Last Edited by AF at 24 Jun 23:24

verified – I just recieved FPL with coordinates and after instantaneous talking with pilot who used RocketRoute, he has no idea that points he use in the apllication are converted to coordinates and send to ATS.

LZIB

Arne wrote:

The super-speedy ACK from SkyDemon gives artificial (undeserved) confidence to pilots

You don’t really get an ACK from SkyDemon though… You get a ‘Confirmation of Flightplan Filing’. The message even states:-

Although we can guarantee that your flightplan has been sent to all addresses below, we cannot guarantee that the recipients will properly retain your flightplan. We therefore always advise telephoning the tower at your departure aerodrome to ensure they still have a copy of your flightplan ready before you begin your journey to the aerodrome.

Arne wrote:

(danish sounds like russian to me)

You must be Swedish!

LFPT, LFPN

This thread is very informational. About a month ago I flew from Germany to southern France through Switzerland. We submitted our FPL directly from SkyDemon (shortly before T/O, yes, 15-20’). While the AFISO at Freiburg had no problem finding and activating it, and ATC in Basel seemed to see it as well to clear us through their TMA, Switzerland ATCs could not see it when we got there, and France ATC had the FPL but did not receive the DEP message (they might have received it before the actual FPL so it was discarded?). The day before we had followed a similar procedure (with a little more time ahead, submission probably 30-40’ before T/O) from Sweden to Germany and had no issues whatsoever. Don’t know if it’s a country thing or just the too short time.
Peter wrote:

VFR pilots should ideally make use of IFR waypoints/navaids (e.g. ORTAC, KONAN, KOK, MAK, etc)
This is the recommendation from the Swedish ARO people and from the controllers in our tower, makes life so much easier for them. I always try to use IFR points along the route (at VFR altitudes), even if I don’t fly exactly on top of them in E or G airspace.
Peter wrote:
but they come up against [thread on VRPs].
In Sweden mandatory and recommended VRPs are not the same color on maps and VAC charts. This is matched in SkyDemon for example, no excuse. Neither are usable as turning points in a FPL submitted to the Swedish FPC though, but I certainly plan my departures and arrivals with them in mind.
Town-names cannot be used either, because the typical radar maps do not show any geography, only the contours of the country and FIRs, airports, IFR points and airways, and little triangles moving around with their label in tow. Controllers here have no use for town names, well they may know where towns are more or less, but certainly not villages.
172driver wrote:
This is the Vienna VFR transit route, so far, so good. But why would anyone write all these points into a FPL?
Because you cannot write “Vienna VFR transit route” as a valid route, and the DCT from entry to exit point is quite far from the actual route. These routes don’t have a V205 or M736 name like an airway.
That’s actually where an abreviated FPL on the radio shines “transit through Chambery TMA from November Whisky to Whisky Golf via the northern VFR route”. Done, 3s.
Hunnicat wrote:
If there is any kind of problem (route etc) all ATS units (mostly AROs) have time to write to originator and make some corrections
If there was any feedback sent to SkyDemon or whoever they use to send the FPL into the system, it never came back to us. Not by email, not by phone, not by anything, we checked. We received an ACK email about 3s after pushing the send button, obviously an automated answer.
When submitting manually to the Swedish FPC, I always include my cell number even though that field is optional. When the FPL gets approved (never after 3s, there is always somebody on the other side of the screen) I get the ACK by SMS, and if there is a problem they most often call. The delay to get the ACK also means I don’t even start my engine before receiving it. The super-speedy ACK from SkyDemon gives artificial (undeserved) confidence to pilots (“I’ve done my part, now it’s on them”).
AF wrote:
Was rather unnerving trying to:
a) Understand what she just told me to report at
I got this in Denmark, pronounced with a danish accent by the danish controller even though our conversation was in english. Even for an almost local it took me a while to find the place she was referring to (danish sounds like russian to me).

Last Edited by Arne at 22 Jun 17:42
ESMK, Sweden

A little late response due to some travel (flying) in Africa. AeroPlus Flight Plan also used their own VFR addressing engine based on what is provided in the AIPs in the ENR 1.11 section. The flight plan is then filed using the AFTN gateway that also EuroFPL is using, but addressed as specified in our own rules database. If for example, you depart from EHLE to an airfield in the UK, then the flight plan is delivered to ARO Schiphol in accordance with the AIP of The Netherlands. On the return flight, we fully auto address as there is no ARO office in the UK to deliver the flight plan to. This playlist explains how we approach VFR addressing: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-vK592zR06f5kvDqdFI9mNMx1q_1_lV7

That being said, it doesn’t always go perfectly well with VFR addressing.

For our African flying adventures, we use our own addressing engine to deliver flight plans throughout Africa digitally through AFTN messages and that has not seen a problem once, except in South Sudan.

EDLE, Netherlands
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