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ATC arguing with pilot re a request to turn to avoid

Well, yes, it’s no good at all saying so and so won’t accept you at that level, without giving details of what and where etc. One could speculate as to the reasons for the brevity there but it’s no good whichever way you look at it. ATC is supposed to coordinate between countries better than that. Also if you file a change to VFR, ATC ought to pick up on that, with a comment at least. Plus, if the wx happened to be not VFR then the pilot is entitled to delay a change to VFR, etc, etc. The MVA is a factor but a pilot has no practical way to find out what (off-airport) MVA the ATCO is working to, so it is for ATC to advise whether a given level of service etc can be provided on such and such a heading.

But as I said earlier that’s all a side issue; I could post a hundred ATC exchanges like that, though most of them would be less useless to the pilot. And there will always be some people (not you) who will try to derail the thread into saying that one could have flown closer to some cloud, or through it, etc – based on an image from a camera which is a lot wider than the human eye and which shows everything so much smaller.

The reason for this thread is in post #1. I was surprised ATC could “see weather”, but the really surprising bit (which I was totally unaware of until some German speakers translated it, by email because initially nobody who could translate it wanted it posted openly) was the bizzare intervention of that Austrian airline pilot.

I could have posted just the sound track to make the intended point.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

It reminds me of southampton on one especially unpleasant day. An inbound cat asked for at least 10 heading changes for weather, all granted, albeit gradually more reluctantly. Finally atc pointed out the captain had taken himself out of cas (the class d veil around southampton) and what were his intentions. Weather avoidance had taken priority to remaining in cas and it felt like the pilot had lost situational awareness in the process. I ended up on the final approach before the other aircraft, but recall it was especially unpleasant. It did however illustrate some of the wider problems of working weather for both pilot and at.

I was surprised ATC could “see weather"

BTW The last picture shows altocumulus lenticularis (it’s not stratus) that can’t be seen by radar and I doubt that can be seen on IR image either while it’s cloud you definitely don’t want to fly through.

Last Edited by Emir at 27 Sep 05:21
LDZA LDVA, Croatia

Peter wrote:

I can post other videos showing wx to avoid and different people with different size balls can post their views on whether one could have flown through such and such cloud

didn´t you ask for some more threads some months ago? this looks like a good idea once this conversation it over…

LKKU, LKTB

Radar does not show clouds directly, it shows precipitation. But it does not matter anyway because the radar controller has no business telling you to fly through clouds („you are an IFR flight“). I would simply ignore that.

To me the picture looks like the clouds were lower and could have been safely avoided by small and unannounced corrections.

Yes, looks like lenticular clouds. I would overfly those as high as possible.

Last Edited by at 27 Sep 07:29

Alexis, next time I do a really tough flight, like Shoreham to Bembridge, I will get you an airline ticket to Gatwick and then you can be my RHS tactical wx avoidance consultant. You could also provide real time official translations of any Austrian/German airline pilot transmissions saying there is no weather, so I could climb to FL300 and route through those areas instead. Deal?

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Wow, what an offer to fly with such a European IFR legend :-) But thank you, no. I have no time to be your navigator. A „tough flight“? Like the one you posted?

PS: If you don‘t want other people‘s opinions, then why do you ask? You could have learned a lot from many of the above posts if you opened up just a little. Bosco explained it all to you.

Get yourself an ADL device!

Last Edited by at 27 Sep 08:02

Now now boys…behave.
The question is not whether the cloud was actually higher, lower, left or right. From the pilots perspective it was going to Be on his track and made the avoid request which was rejected. I’ve got all the ‘bells and whistles, on my plane such as the Iridium satellite receiver with Garmin’s weather subscription but it doesn’t show you everything. Yesterday I was flying Calvi to Brac FL120 over the eastern part of Italy. I had the IR sat image downloaded. the G1000 acutually tells you the temp range of the clouds, that are displayed which in this case was -36deg C. What it didn’t show was the rising medium levels clouds I was flying over and which was steadily rising in from of me. Being at -6deg c I requested at climb to FL140 due to possible icing conditions. I was asked if I was picking up at now and replied no, but would do due the the buildups in front of me. I received an immediate clearance to FL140.

EGBE (COVENTRY, UK)

Cannot join tough flight to Bembridge but tried to put a good flight strategy together for you.

;-)

Rob2701 wrote:

From the pilots perspective it was going to Be on his track and made the avoid request which was rejected.

Correct me if I’m wrong. Peter WAS on avoidence heading and was solely asked by ATC to advice when he would be able to turn towards the waypoint (when he replied that he’d Need that heading for at least another 50 NM). He actually was NOT forced to enter a cloud ahead.

EDLE
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