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ATC arguing with pilot re a request to turn to avoid

nobbi wrote:

I guess he was a colleague controller flying a sailplane/ glider in that area

Ditto.

Oh, and @Peter, I wouldn’t recommend learning German as the outcome of this… it would be much easier to simply tell the controller off in English and have this discussion later…
Perhaps you could try these two phrases:
“Sind Sie verrückt?”
and
“Was zum Teufel ist los mit Ihnen?”

They will definitely smooth things right out for ya… ;)~

AF wrote:

d
“Was zum Teufel ist los mit Ihnen?”

It would certainly be attention grabbing.

It sounds like what an overacting German villain with a bad accent would say in a B movie…

Biggin Hill

It sounds like what an overacting German villain with a bad accent would say in a B movie…

Ah, I sink sis is your famous Englisch sens of humour, ja?

EGKB Biggin Hill

How about this for an argument with ATC?

https://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Controllers-Ignore-Mayday-Calls-229727-1.html

What surprises me a bit is the “apparent” lack of PIC using emergency authority to just tell ATC what they were going to do and land without waiting for clearance, having declared MAYDAY. Having time to make 4 MAYDAY calls and discussing/requesting an ATC clearance sounds a bit like they were more PAN’s.

LSZK, Switzerland

Alexis wrote:

That’s your opinion. I would, from what I see on that photo, not have asked for an avoidance heading, because there was not really much to avoid. A lot of drama for nothing.

That’s a lenticular cloud, and indicates mountain wave conditions. Underneath you get rotor (depending on the strength, can turn a plane upside down) and on the leading edge the lift can be very strong, and on the trailing edge the sink can be very strong. It also might be full of ice. Any glider pilot knows about these things.

Due to things like camera focal length etc. it’s difficult to judge from the photo how big this lenticular is or what the likely surrounding conditions were.

Last Edited by alioth at 11 Oct 09:17
Andreas IOM

The picture looked like he was above those clouds, and that’s why i wrote what wrote. No, i would not fly into that cloud.

Alexis… I had already written that the camera angle (of about 120 degrees) compresses the image so what you see in the video is, ahem, smaller in angular terms than what is seen out of the window.

When you are watching a video which came from say a 120 degree camera, on a PC screen of say 21" and say 30" away from your face, then even with a full-screen video you are seeing only a fraction of the viewing angle. And this applies both horizontally and vertically.

That was also why I posted that still photo showing the general conditions.

In non-deiced GA, you need to be VMC OR be pretty sure you won’t get icing (which means warmer than 0C OR colder than about -15C BUT as 2 or 3 people who know me will remember that is no guarantee UNLESS you are using alternate air OR prop TKS) OR you have an escape route via descent into warm air which you don’t have when above the Alps. I prefer to not make mistakes in this department more than once or twice…

I am still editing the full Bolzano video; should be done in a few days. Just quickly rendered a section showing just the Bolzano LOC 01 approach, starting at the FL120 FORER IAF; should be mandatory viewing for anyone planning to do it in IMC

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

That’s why i wrote “looks like”. I would not have flown into it either, with or without anti-ice.
I agree that you cannot tlell by the photo.

From here

5:38 was a good one.

12:05 now also clarifies why Padova did in the end accept you at FL160. It was because in order to solve the issue, they proposed, and you accepted a VFR segment…. common practice over the Alps. They did in fact NOT accept you (IFR) at FL160.

Haven’t watched the rest of the video.

Frankfurt (EDFZ, EDFE), Germany
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