That’s more what it was like. I listened to it five times to get all the details. I still could not understand some minor details.
- The Controller first agreed on the avoidance heading and asked Peter to report back once he’s able to go direct to BRENO (?)
- Instead of simply accepting that for the time beeing Peter advised that he would need “another 50 miles”, which created the conflict with the italians.
- Then the Controller made the mistake of telling him he “is an IFR flight”, clearly showing that she knows little about snall airplanes IFR operations. It is also none of her business to tell him how good the weather is, the only person who decides into what weather the airplane will fly is the pilot.
- That the “italians would not accept him on tha avoidance heading at that level” would not have impressed me much. Italian ATC says many things, and if he had contacted them later himself they would simply have to accept that he would not fly into the clouds.
Had Peter signaled that the “avoidance heading” was “Ok for now” there would have been no problem. It could always have been negotiated again later.
Not a big tragedy anyway. And it had absolutely nothing to do with the controller not speaking English well.
Maybe it’s a bit OT but here’s my experience from LQSA last month.
Heavy rain started when I was taxing for departure. Then ATC called to warn me about TCU/CB on assigned SID and they asked if I would accept another (a bit longer) SID wich will ensure avoiding heaviest precipitation. Of course I accepted it and after few minutes in heavy rain I stopped climbing on top of the first cloud layer at FL120. Above me was another apparently thick layer and temperature was below zero so I was happy being out of clouds. After few minutes I got call from Lufthansa pilot who departed few minutes after me but of course he was ahead and above. He told me that at FL160 all the way to Zagreb was clear sky and that there was almost no icing in cloud layer above me and there was tail wind at FL180. Of course ATC cleared me to climb.
That’s how I believe it should always be.
Just look at the number of PIREPs from commercial jets in the US reporting weather that is only really of concern for smaller planes. My guess is because everyone sitting in a commercial cockpit there has spent at least 1500 hours flying smaller stuff, so they know what it feels like. In Europe, you can go on to the airlines with 180 hours of small GA flying time, all of which in a very controlled environment, so that understanding is lacking.
Video from 1:41
NIP (non identified pilot): " Carola? "
C: " Yes please "
NIP: " Von was für’n Wetter redet denn der ? "
What kind of weather is he talking about?
C: " Ja, das hoab ich jetzt grad das Wetterradar aufgeschlagen – der Dominik und ich wundern uns auch grad … "
Yes, I just selected the weather radar page – Dominik and I are also just astonished …
NIP: " Wir sehen von da bis zum Mittelmeer alldieweil … ist schon ne hohe Schichtbewölkung ja, aber drunter … "
We can see from here to the Mediterranean all the time … well there are high cloud layers yes, but below …
C: " Ja, der Kollege sagt auf deutsch, das ist Umwegrentabilität. "
Yes, the colleague says in German, that is Savings Through Indirect Returns …
NIP: " Ich versteh, alles klar "
I understand, all o.k.
Umwegrentabilität, if I did not misunderstand that recording phonetically, is a business economics expression not properly used here but may be controllers use it for the O’Leary way to gain short-cuts. So to say literally "more rentability by avoiding detours "
So there you go. Some pilots lie to ATC and ATC now suspect pilots of lying. So let’s all do ourselves a favour and don’t lie to ATC just to get a shortcut.
Your word in Michael O’Learys pockets.
When did the change to the ATPL syllabus come in? I get EASA NPA notifications but don’t recall seeing that one.
I am a bit shocked by this distrust between ATC and pilots. But the most shocking is that pilots use false CBs to ask for shortcuts !! This lack of wisdom and responsibility is inexcusable from ATPLs that want to be seen as sky gods ! (Maybe those facts are linked :))
I think those airlines should be punished. Of course finding evidence will be tough.
Europe looks more and more like Third World to me !
For avoidance of doubt, my Q in #90 refers to whether the actions of that airline pilot (to be a slimey sneering self appointed policeman who would have had no idea where I actually was anyway) are now in the EASA ATPL syllabus.
A supplementary question might be whether ATC are now required to prioritise such a report (from a pilot who is probably flying a deiced plane with radar and at 2x the altitude and who has no idea where the other aircraft is) over a request from a pilot avoiding weather.
That Ryanair or whatever do this routinely is irrelevant. One might argue that airlines are only playing ATC at their own game, because a lot of ATC policies are seen as artifically rigid, especially in some parts of Europe.
You should just have been more specific. What you said and how you said it was not conclusive and thereby convincing. The exchange between ATC and that crew was innocent as far it concerns the crew but not adequate as far as it concerns ATC. File a report with Austrocontrol.
However, constantly implying that ATC in various places do not properly speak English is very insulting and also very far from the truth. I reckon that most of these ATCOs are better at understanding and being understood by crews from all over the world with any kind of accent / dialect than many native speakers who believe that English has to sound exactly the way it sounds in their borough.
