Class A is no VFR. Here in the Netherlands the Schiphol/Amsterdam TMA starts at 1500 feet and is Class A. No VFR traffic is allowed whatsoever in it, but you can fly VFR below it up to 1500 feet no problem.
Class A is no VFR. Here in the Netherlands the Schiphol/Amsterdam TMA starts at 1500 feet and is Class A. No VFR traffic is allowed whatsoever in it, but you can fly VFR below it up to 1500 feet no problem.
If that was in response to my question, then I think that is the same everywhere.
I don't know of anywhere that allows a SVFR clearance in a TMA. I've only ever seen it in a CTR, where I believe it's allowed under ICAO.
A SVFR clearance isn't a VFR clearance.
A SVFR clearance for example, is the only way to get to the Channel Islands if you can't fly in accordance with IFR.
I don't know of anywhere that allows a SVFR clearance in a TMA. I've only ever seen it in a CTR, where I believe it's allowed under ICAO.
A TMA does not go down to ground, SVFR in A is only possible if A goes down to the ground (i.e. a control zone). I believe this is ICAO but still exotic because why would one design a CTR to be class A in the first place? The Channel Islands are the only example I know about.
Class A is no VFR. Here in the Netherlands the Schiphol/Amsterdam TMA starts at 1500 feet and is Class A. No VFR traffic is allowed whatsoever in it
A few days ago I was flying in the Schiphol TMA at 2000ft (IFR from Leeds EGNM) and Approach wanted to get rid of me suggesting I should cancel IFR for a VFR recovery later at EHLE. Since there was a layer of stratus below me I said that I wanted to stay at 2000ft as long as possible. I got a: "IFR cancelled at .... , remain at 2000ft, freq. change approved". So there I was, flying VFR in Class A airspace ?!
I believe this is ICAO but still exotic because why would one design a CTR to be class A in the first place? The Channel Islands are the only example I know about.
London & Paris both have class A CTRs.
A few days ago I was flying in the Schiphol TMA at 2000ft (IFR from Leeds EGNM) and Approach wanted to get rid of me suggesting I should cancel IFR for a VFR recovery later at EHLE. Since there was a layer of stratus below me I said that I wanted to stay at 2000ft as long as possible. I got a: "IFR cancelled at .... , remain at 2000ft, freq. change approved". So there I was, flying VFR in Class A airspace ?!
You should have told him that you were proceeding IFR, as his clearance was illegal because you couldn't fly VFR in class A and waited for his reaction. Best to be recording it for posterity :D
172driver
Thanks very much for all the info, I checked with our handlers at Ibiza and they dont seem to think there is any restriction on VFR at the moment, but I will certainly scrutinise the NOTAMS
I believe Alicante also do this in the Summer, are there any others you know about?
Cheers
Phil
Airspace A is a clear statement from the regulator that they do not want VFR there under any circumstances. CTR's are normally not A, if so, then same thing, that Airport does not want VFR, period.
Class A is also the wet dream of quite a few folks who have an allergy against anything below 20 tons at an airport, incidently the same folks who think IFR should be restricted to airliners. In other words, don't bother coming if you are below 20 tons or so (others won't take anything below an Airbus if they had the choice).
I did encounter one especcially friendly guy at a conference some years back who was obviously very frustrated about VFR flying in general and who shouted at me "If it was for me, ALL Airspace would be "A" from GND/FL660!!!" Wonder if he works in Koeln these days....
Switzerland for instance does not have A or B (nor F) and it works quite well that way. If one of the big airports does not have time for VFR, they simply refuse clearance when calling up to enter Class D (which most CTR's are) or C airspace. I've heard it a few times but never happened to myself.
The "A" Airspace of Milano and Rome are dangerous and unnecessary constructs. Milan used to have CVFR routes through that area in the old days (SRN-VOG FL100 and 110) which were a big help. Unfortunately, they are gone too now. Forcing VFR to fly at unsafe altitudes over uneven land or the sea is nothing short of dangerous. 1500 ft AGL may work in places like Amsterdam but it sure as hell doesn't in places like the Roma TMA or Milano. If at all, they should have posted a clear AMSL altitude valid for the whole thing, such as 3000 ft AMSL or so as a lower limit. Still, A to me means that the regulators either purposely wish to ban VFR or simply are too limited in their view and knowledge to know that an airspace C or D is more than sufficient for any kind of application.
I have heard of incidents where VFR Flights who were flying at high altitude (>FL100) were cleared through the outskirts of Milan's "A" Airspace when they told the controller that they could not descend due to clouds (VFR on top) without consequences. So maybe there is some common sense with the ATCOs there.
For me, if I see an airspace A, I avoid the area by a wide margin.
Here is a typical example which we will be flying next Monday...
Valencia to Ibiza via VFR entry point 'N' (San antonio) its under Palma Class A (base 1000' AGL)until the Ibiza CTR and the ground level varies enormously !
I was intending to request SVFR prior to the Palma Class A...
Living here I can attest to some silly airspace limitations. However, you will also find many controllers to understand your problem. If traffic allows it, they will honor your request to go higher than that Palma class A base. Just ask in the air. As to the terrain varying between N and the airport, yes, quite true. They will understand that for terrain clearance you would like to keep 1.500-2.000 MSL from N to LEIB though, and if some silly controller does not, just tell him 'unable because of terrain'. PM me and I will give you some less polite phrases in Spanish that work nicely too :)
IMHO it is extremely poor practice and a huge safety risk to:
1) Design a CTA /TMA with base levels less than MSA. This significantly increases CFIT when in marginal VMC and a popup IFR clearance is not easily and quickly given. The base should be increased, or alternatively completely lowered to touch the ground, i.e. a CTR.
and
2) Choose Class A airspace when it parts or the whole of it can be easily replaced by another airspace class. There is no good reason to deny access / CVFR when in clear VMC.
Sorry, messed up the quote part in my previous posting.
Yes, do check VFR prohibitions by NOTAM several days of the week on major Spanish airports in summer. Like Palma de Mallorca too, although you will not want to go there and pay close to 400 euros in fees.. Instead use LESB, and check opening and fuel hours..
