Peter wrote:
There is also the matter raised by jwoolard in post #15 i.e. not obeying ATC could get you kicked off your airfield.
I was never based at a small airfield, but still find that hard to believe. As long as one operates within the legal frame, what can ATC, in this case a radio operator of some kind who really can only tell you to “take off at your own discretion” do to kick you off the airfield? Certainly not imaginable in the part of the world where I live.
But as others already wrote, without more information on what exactly happened to the starter of this thread this is not going anywhere.
Peter wrote:
The training system ensures pilots are scared of ATC.
Hhhmh. I agree that many (new) pilots are scared of ATC somewhat.
I don’t agree that this is a systematic fault of the training system. Certainly in my training nobody tried to make sure I was afraid of ATC. On the contrary, my flying instructor, who had no business being part of any systematic scheme, tried to teach me to relax on the radio.
I think new pilots have a tendency to “fear” ATC “naturally”. Reasons being unfamiliarity (especially as a fresh PPL in busy airspace, you feel scared of getting a clearance or instruction that you don’t understand and you feel you might be embarrassed if you mess up etc – regardless of how many people told you not to worry) and a sense of authority that surrounds ATC because you can’t see them and they issue “orders”. All that just takes time to get used to.
I would also think that the “problem” with ordering a pilot to land is that the controller assumes all sorts of responsibilities (and the same would be true if the clearance took you onto the approach). For example, the aircraft may be over weight to land without dumping fuel or the cross wind may be unacceptable are two that come to mind. You would imagine the pilot would need only say unable to comply, please give me vectors to take me away from your CAS, for the issue to be sorted out in due course.
I just cant imagine any ATC give such an instruction, unless by order of some Government Authority, as what would be the point of getting involved when the matter can be resolved through alternative courses of action.
In any event the pilot need ony say “unable to comply” and that really puts an end to that course of action.
Peter wrote:
Not complying with ATC is definitely not a criminal offence in most places. Maybe in Norway?
Funny. Googling this, and it turns out that this distinction as well as the old terms used, recently are removed. Today it’s only one legal definition called “Lovbrudd” (an act to break the law), and the severity is simply a matter of punishment, if it get’s into your “records” etc. Not complying with the ATC is punishable by fines and/or prison for up to 2 years. I have never heard of anyone going to prison for this though. It will be interesting to see what will happen to the pilot of N666NN that carved up the tarmac at Leknes, and refused to follow instructions from the ATC 
It’s under investigation, but it’s rather funny to read the short description of the incidence. It say the pilot tried to land or do a low approach at Leknes (meaning they have no idea what he actually intended to do, because he didn’t respond in any meaningful manner to the ATC )
I just think that it is normal, until you gain some experience, to be very cautious of ATC. As you should be to be honest. In general they are right and trying to help you. Over time you learn how to manage ATC and other pilots and learn that there can be situations in which they get it wrong. But beginner pilots are not in a position to assess that.
JasonC I could not agree more, and almost always they are there to help and have seen most things, which new pilots have most certainly not.
They do make mistakes however, we are all human. So new or old dont be scared to question, even if as a new pilot the inclination is not to.
I recall be cleared to land with a herc doing full power run ups at right angles to the runway. If i had seen it (which i hadnt) i would have been very happy to have questioned the landing clearance!
I was always thought ATC was there to help.
Just noticed a slight spelling mistake. Damn autocorrect.
I was always taught ATC was there to help.
Again, not going into much details because probably it will go through other legal ways, my FP was approved and without my knowledge corrected and sent to the ATC. After departure I am told to maintain 1000 ft, and ask if I want to follow a standard VFR route, which from what I saw in the chart I was following till the point I would be entering in the training area and uncontrolled airspace. Meanwhile I am told to report a point (I am still in a critical phase of the flight – T/O) which is express in local language, after request to repeat, I try to look into the map, and while doing that I am also asked for an estimate to a point far away. Meanwhile, because I don’t have autopilot, I started to become overloaded and I let the aircraft to climb and drift to my left.
Still not able to find the point which I should to report I am ordered to return to the airport and lectured that I am not familiar with the airspace while I am still on the air. I didn’t argument on that but it’s easy to understand my state of mind.
Meanwhile I am put on a hold for more than 10 minutes waiting to be send to final. At the end of my holding I am requested to just to circles over a point (?) than finally cleared to final. Again, I really tried to cool down and maintain some clear mind, I just wanted to get out of the situation and park as soon as possible.
I called the tower and after I went there. I was told that I didn’t follow the route prescribed on the VFR manual. I showed them the chart and a VFR route on the chart which I am told that it’s a non authorized route, which by the way such route was on their chart. I requested them to show me where is that written, took them 15 minutes to finally find the VFR manual, which states the VFR routes but again, doesn’t mentioned that a route depicted on the map is not valid.
I also questioned why was my FP approved and changed by ops.
I was also questioned why not to hire a local pilot to get familiar with the airspace.
My observations are:
- when flying from international airports, ATC is not formatted that SEP are usually or most of the time flown by single pilot, without autopilot and instructions, or more stupidly, information requests on critical moments of the flight only creates confusion and excessive workload to the pilot.
- VFR manual (!), is there an IFR manual? Who is going to read 200 pages everytime he needs to fly in a country? I do read NOTAMS, AIP for the local airports, check the weather from departure, en-route, destination, alternates, but honestly I don’t go for 200 pages on over regulated procedures. Problem is that you will never know what you need to ask or to know.
- GA is not liked at all.
- I also do think that ATC over exercise their authority.
At the end I probably have a report against me, and from my side I am still thinking on what to do.
Thanks for your inputs.
Could you have asked for vectors?
It would be really useful to know which country this happened in.
This
Still not able to find the point which I should to report I am ordered to return to the airport and lectured that I am not familiar with the airspace while I am still on the air.
is completely outrageous and I cannot see what purpose it served. It doesn’t make sense at several levels, the first of which is that the controller’s responsibility ends with getting you out of his CAS, and he could have just given you vectors.
VRPs can be damn hard to find. From my earliest days (VFR) I would not fly anywhere without a GPS showing the published VRPs, having been shouted at by an ATCO when inbound at La Rochelle (after being unable to find “Silver Point”, he yelled “next time you come to our city, bring a map”). The locals always laugh at this problem because most of them rarely fly much further than the VRPs 
