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Dual logging (EASA and FAA)

Dear forum,
another thing that puzzles my mind since I received my temporary FAA license and also did my first flight (with CFI), in the US.

How to you log your time? First I thought there is no issue, as I am now a licensed pilot, but after this first flight with CFI it came to my mind, that by FAA standards we can both log PIC, while on EASA it would be a DUAL flight. Of course, EASA is of no interest, as flight took part on N-reg in he US. But by EASA standards (e.g. for renewal of class rating), does
a) This flight count at all towards total time?
b) Counts as DUAL under EASA regs?
c) Counts as PIC as per US-regs, even under EASA?

Hence, how do you handle this in your logbook (or do you fill multiple) and what do you do with N-reg flying in your country (is that EASA or FAA)?

Are there other peculiarities, that I currently do not see?

P19 EDFE EDVE EDDS

Sorry for my ignorance, but what does dual mean under EASA regs? Instruction? Is there anything in the EASA regs the prohibits one from logging both dual and PIC time, if one is licenced and flying the plane? When is dual time required/relevant for EASA after one has achieved the PPL?

FAA makes a distinction between acting PIC for the flight (relates to responsibility and as nothing to do with time logging) and logging PIC time which is the time one is flying the aircraft. Once one has an FAA licence, any time at the controls is logged as PIC time. Dual time in FAA-speak is only when one doesn’t yet have a PPL certificate, as far as I’m aware.

LSZK, Switzerland

The EASA regs state:
“Dual instruction time” means flight time or instrument ground time during which a person is
receiving flight instruction from a properly authorised instructor.

And in the rest of all regs, this is only referred to as DUAL, if I understand correctly. The EASA regs do not forbid to log DUAL and PIC, they especially encourage that with the definition of SPIC:
“Student pilot-in-command” (SPIC) means a student pilot acting as pilot-in-command on a flight with
an instructor where the latter will only observe the student pilot and shall not influence or control
the flight of the aircraft.

FCL.050 then specifically tells us:
When an aircraft carries two or more pilots as members of the operating crew,
one of them shall, before the flight commences, be designated by the operator
as the aircraft PIC, according to operational requirements, who may delegate
the conduct of the flight to another suitably qualified pilot. All flying carried
out as PIC is entered in the logbook as ‘PIC’. A pilot flying as ‘PICUS’ or ‘SPIC’
enters flying time as ‘PIC’ but all such entries are to be certified by the PIC or FI
in the ‘Remarks’ column of the logbook.

With that regulation alone I would state that even in regular EASA you could be SPIC in the described situation. The problem is my German CAA, which lately issued a notice saying there can only be one PIC at a time.

The importance of PIC vs. DUAL is e.g. in the requirements for rating recurrencies or for the application towards IR, CPL and such.

Well I’d like to widen the question: What are other CAA’s views on the PIC question: Especially during examinations or for check flights? German CAA clearly states that all of this shall be DUAL only for the pilot and PIC for the FE or FI (Well it also widens that towards flights by the order of an aircraft owner or club, which could be with a non-FI).

P19 EDFE EDVE EDDS

Flight time should be logged under the authority of which you are flying under. Fullfil the FAA requirements to log PIC and flying an N reg, log PIC. Flying an EASA reg, log DUAL.
When reporting your hours report them according to the rules under which they were logged unless specifically requested to report in a different way.

Sweden

Hi Tobi,

somehow your post seems a little inconsistent. On the one side you refer to:

TobiBS wrote:

When an aircraft carries two or more pilots as members of the operating crew,

So we are talking about multi crew operations – but on the other side you write:

TobiBS wrote:

in the requirements for rating recurrencies or for the application towards IR, CPL and such.

But if you don’t already have a CPL, how could you be involved in multi crew operations? At least according to EASA, PPL is limited to single pilot ops – so the case you quote from EASA FCL can not happen when flying with a PPL.

In the end your question ist extremely simple to answer: If you receive instruction the time counts under total time but not as PIC time (because you are not PIC).
Latest when you start to fly IFR you need two different logbooks anyways if you want to track both EASA and FAA flight times accurately as definition of IFR time is substantially different in both regulations (in EASA you log IFR time while in FAA you log IMC time).

Germany

Malibuflyer wrote:

At least according to EASA, PPL is limited to single pilot ops – so the case you quote from EASA FCL can not happen when flying with a PPL.

Do you have a reference to that limitation? FCL.205.A(a) states “The privileges of the holders of a PPL(A) are to act without remuneration as PIC or co-pilots of aeroplanes or TMGs engaged in non-commercial operations and to exercise all privileges of holders of an LAPL(A).” (my emphasis)

It is impossible to be a co-pilot in single pilot ops.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

If you are flying and hold valid and current licence/rating for the aircraft and acting as PIC – you are PIC. So doing a type rating revalidation flight with instructor (you have live rating) you are PIC; doing the same as a renewal flight (your rating has expired) you are DUAL.

I hold standalone EASA and FAA licences and have done so for 15yrs. I will note (as I found when getting a South Africa licence) that your Total Hours should be a sum of your PIC and Dual unless you have some P2 which is only relevant in an aircraft that legally requires 2 pilots.

You can fly all you want with an instructor sitting next to you; if you are PIC you log PIC.

For multi pilot operations under EASA you need PPL/CPL + MCC or MPL or ATPL.

ESME, ESMS

Airborne_Again wrote:

It is impossible to be a co-pilot in single pilot ops.

Well spotted, but(!): This privilege of the license can only be theoretically used. That is because multi pilot ops can only happen in two cases:
- Either you fly a “Multi Pilot Aeroplane” (i.e. an aeroplane that requires a minimum crew of at least 2 pilots). To obtain the required type rating for such aircraft you need to comply with FCL.720A (d) that implies that you have multi engine IR, ATPL theory and MCC course.
- Or you fly in operations under an ops manual that requires 2 pilots in a plane that could be flown by one pilot. It is hard to imagine such an operations manual in place in non commercial ops – and if it’s commercial ops you need at least a CPL to act as one of the two pilots.

Yes, there are some very special cases where you can actually do multi pilot ops with a PPL – e.g. if you have ME-IR, ATPL-theory and MCC but (e.g. for medical reasons) can only get a PPL to fly your private Citation X in non commercial ops around the globe – but I was simply assuming that the OP is none of these special cases

Germany

Malibuflyer wrote:

Latest when you start to fly IFR you need two different logbooks anyways if you want to track both EASA and FAA flight times accurately as definition of IFR time is substantially different in both regulations (in EASA you log IFR time while in FAA you log IMC time).

For the FAA, you log Actual Instrument time or Simulated Instrument time, not IMC which merely means the conditions are not VMC, but has nothing to do will logging instrument time. Actual instrument time is when you need to rely solely on your instruments to maintain control of the aircraft, IOW you can’t control the aircraft using visual means or a visual horizon. 300 feet below a solid overcast with visibility unlimited in class E airspace is IMC, but not loggable as actual instrument time. Simulated Instrument time is when you have a view limiting device preventing you from seeing outside visual references forcing you to control the aircraft by using your flight instruments and requires a safety pilot. The FAA does not require IFR time be logged. Logging time in the US is only needed for recording currency requirements and or for meeting experience requirements for a rating or privilege.

KUZA, United States
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