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Accident in Spain, M20K D-ETFT

The question in my mind when it comes to certain cultural specifics is the there is a fear of retribution in some mind sets which can be larger than the fear for your life. If you know that calling for help will cause an investigation followed by fines and possible loss of license then calling mayday is just off the list.

A very dangerous thing but also very present in some FI’s mindsets from times past but also present. Seeing how some nations deal with even small trespasses no wonder.

Last Edited by Mooney_Driver at 20 May 14:51
LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

I have never met a pilot, perhaps it never came up in conversation, that has used an alternate in anger. I haven’t. The one time years ago when I should have (I got into real difficulty in IMC), and I still visualise it now, was that I flew right over an airport, in VFR, before motoring into a huge frontal system that had arrived to block my route, ’’early’’.

Now, I came out of that dangerous scrape a better pilot, and survived, but to this day I still wonder why I flew right over that airport when I knew I should have landed.There are times that I kid myself that I had the capability when I went IMC to fly on and catch an ILS into a larger airfield much further South, but I am kidding myself on that one. I was a VFR only pilot at that time.

So emboldened by the thought that these guys are three experienced, and professional airmen, I can understand why they did not make it out, motored on regardless thinking we will get through this assuming that the sole cause of the crash was loss of control in deteriorating weather. And I also think that many of the accidents we read about involving flying on, regardless, into poor weather is precisely that, we think we can manage it, until we cannot.

Last Edited by BeechBaby at 20 May 16:35
Fly safe. I want this thing to land l...
EGPF Glasgow

FWIW I have used an alternate many times, but it was always on an IFR flight, and there you fly the IAP to minima and if see bugger-all then you can either do it again (usually pointless if it is due to very log cloud, but it’s good for logging approaches for the FAA IR rolling currency ) or you divert.

I think it is on VFR flights where wishful thinking often exists.

But if this was due to an engine loss, none of that really matters… their only chance was a good topo map.

Damn coincidence however, to lose an engine at the same time as entering a TSRA.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

I think it is on VFR flights where wishful thinking often exists.

Agree..

Peter wrote:

Damn coincidence however, to lose an engine at the same time as entering a TSRA.

Yes, that would really be a bad day at the office.

Fly safe. I want this thing to land l...
EGPF Glasgow

@BeechBaby
Never used an alternate in anger?? Wow!
I’ve used 2 on VFR flights in the past 2 weeks, both weather related. This is not because I launch recklessly but because I divert when I should and because on long flights over varying terrain you get dramatic changes in weather conditions en route. Some of it is predictable through forecasts, some not.

The biggest problems for me arise from weather conditions between reporting stations, when terrain acts to create a local condition that you can’t avoid. So when I plan flights, I almost EXPECT to put down before I get to my destination and I know where I’m going to do it too. I can guess where the problems might arise.

Regarding ATC support, Belgrade radar and Nis tower were great yesterday. I was departing Nis on my last leg to a grass field without weather reporting, midway between Nis and Belgrade, both of which were VFR. Radar showed patchy light rain not exactly there. TAFs in Serbia warned of possible occasional to scattered Tstorms, which can be spotted and avoided. I thought I was home free, but after start was told by tower not to go because of thunderstorms at destination. (Confirmed later by someone in the area.) 30 minutes later tower called me on the cell phone with an all clear and I had an easy flight. Had I gone earlier, I would have stayed clear, of course, or diverted elsewhere, but that warning saved me some trouble.

A couple years ago, I was arrested for illegal entry after a diversion that involved landing at a non-port of entry coming from non-Schengen into the Schengen zone. But ATC had proposed the alternate. After all tapes and my weather briefing (weather worse than forecast) were reviewed, it was clear I had acted appropriately and I got a fairly nominal fine for the border violation. Weirdly enough, while under arrest, I got a call from a fellow who had watched my flight on flight aware and listened to the tapes, who congratulated me on my decision making.

FWIW this is why I always do a W&B even when flying alone so I can show I did it if asked.

I try always to leave myself an out. The only exception is over the water a long way from land where your only out is a life jacket and warm water. I will fly fairly low over rough terrain if visibility is good when forced to by low ceilings. But the stretches are rare where there is no place to put a plane like a Rallye down if need be. I try to fly over roads and villages in such a case. My engine monitor is very much part of my VFR scan. I could not fly the way I do if I had any compunctions about asking for help or diverting. But if I were too risk averse I wouldn’t do my trips in the first place.

But I probably need a different plane for the sort of flying I do. Being in smooth air above the weather or a broken layer is where I would rather be.

As regards the accident flight, I can’t grasp how anyone could launch VFR into those conditions. It’s sad and incomprehensible. I am actually quite risk averse. That’s the only way to take risks. Any pilot who worries about asking for help or creating a scene by diverting should get over that psychological barrier.

Last Edited by WhiskeyPapa at 20 May 20:29
Tököl LHTL

BeechBaby wrote:

I have never met a pilot, perhaps it never came up in conversation, that has used an alternate in anger. I haven’t.

I certainly have, and by weird coincidence one of these was in the region where the accident we are discussing here occurred. I was going south, from Girona to Malaga with a planned fuel stop at Granada. Roughly in the area of the accident, it became clear, that the headwind was much stronger than forecast (something like 30-40kts vs the 10 or so forecast) and that I would not make it to Granada. Diverted into Valencia, fueled up and had another good look at the wx along the route – sure enough, this didn’t look too great either. Waited a few hours for the wx (thunderstorms in the mountains east of Granada) to clear and went on my merry way.

BeechBaby wrote:

I have never met a pilot, perhaps it never came up in conversation, that has used an alternate in anger. I haven’t.

I have twice in 800 hrs. Once was crossing the Alps VFR when a valley was unexpectedly closed. The other was IFR when fog at my destination was forecast to lift but didn’t.

Interestingly, in none of the cases I went to a preplanned alternate. In the Alps case, the rerouting was so major that the alternate was nowhere near my planned route. In the IFR case, I cancelled IFR and landed at a VFR airport that was more conveniently located than my IFR alternate.

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 21 May 06:12
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Peter wrote:

Damn coincidence however, to lose an engine at the same time as entering a TSRA.

I can see correlation/causation, with icing (from the TSRA) causing induction issues.

Last Edited by Noe at 21 May 06:34

Nearly diverted from Ljubljana to Venice due to approach ban considerations, but then the snow showers causing it moved on – it was late, not many alternates were open, and fuel considerations applied.

Lots of precautionary landings due to weather when VFR, although none off airport, especially when flying in mountains. With the passing of time VFR in flight visibility minima for me is creeping up – 3, preferably 5 miles. Bring a book and a thermos, makes sitting out weather part of the mindset.

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

with icing (from the TSRA) causing induction issues

You would need to be in a really dire situation to get that, at the level they were at, in Spain. Remember this was supposed to be a VFR flight.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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