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Manchester and Liverpool zone crossing - VFR

Teal – I think there’s a handling fee at Liverpool on top of the landing fee. Ravenair do the handling. Any time I have been in there someone else was paying, and I didn’t see the invoice.

If Liverpool is your destination then Liverpool John Lennon is still probably the sensible choice, especially if you’d have to take a taxi from wherever you land.

EGTT, The London FIR

Thanks Finners, will check.

Hampshire

jgmusic wrote:

I flew over POL and the surrounding area on Sunday with a tailwind of 20+ kts – great! – but with massive turbulence and violent up-draughts throwing me close the base of the Class A airspace – not so great.

If it’s any consolation, on a thermic day the Manchester LLR will be just as turbulent from the thermals with even less vertical room (and while trying to remain in compliance with ‘land clear’ and keep an eye on landable fields).

Last Edited by alioth at 31 May 16:23
Andreas IOM

alioth wrote:

If it’s any consolation, on a thermic day the Manchester LLR will be just as turbulent from the thermals with even less vertical room (and while trying to remain in compliance with ‘land clear’ and keep an eye on landable fields).

Good point!

I notice you’re from the Isle of Man – this is where we were heading to after POL. Big shout out to Ronaldsway – possibly the friendliest airport I’ve ever visited. Everyone from the tower, to the flying club, to the totally amazing and unexpected TWO-SIX café (what a hidden gem!) was super helpful and accommodating. Look forward to exploring the north of the island next time (when the TT isn’t on )

jgmusic
North Weald, United Kingdom

Some pictures of the TWO-SIX café (named after the runway, obvs). It really is good – real food, which is something of a rarity for UK GA



jgmusic
North Weald, United Kingdom

Finners wrote:

Teal – I think there’s a handling fee at Liverpool on top of the landing fee. Ravenair do the handling. Any time I have been in there someone else was paying, and I didn’t see the invoice.

Last time I checked, the landing fee and Ravenair’s handling fee were about the same – I ended up not flying in due to Wx. I think I was trying to avoid another bouncy landing on the bumpy muddy field that is called Manchester Barton / Manchester City Airport.

Flying a TB20 out of EGTR
Elstree (EGTR), United Kingdom

Last time I went to Barton (about 18 months ago) the grass was like a putting green (definitely way better than the time before that I went there – but that had been 19 years earlier). But of course my type of aircraft might not feel the bumps like yours :-)

Andreas IOM

e wrote:

I notice you’re from the Isle of Man – this is where we were heading to after POL. Big shout out to Ronaldsway – possibly the friendliest airport I’ve ever visited

There should be a EuroGA meetup here :-)

I fly into Ronaldsway once or twice a month (from Andreas) and they’ve always been perfect. I’m usually only visiting the fuellers at area Mike though, but the café is only 10 minutes from home so it’s a nice place to go to spectate of an evening.

Andreas IOM

From here

A new wrinkle on this:

The Manchester LLR is officially class D airspace, but there’s an exemption to allow VFR traffic through the Manchester LLR without needing a clearance.
This will apparently be changed, too, this came in from the Lancashire Aero Club:

Dear Members,

You may already be aware that on March 26th the VFR derogation in Class D airspace will be removed. This has for years meant that while flying in Class D airspace we only need to be clear of cloud and in sight of the surface, if flying at less than 140kts. The new limitation means that VFR flight in Class D will have to be 1000ft clear of cloud vertically, unless a Special VFR clearance is obtained, when the old limits will still be in force. Either way a positive clearance to enter Class D must be obtained.

Why this matters so much is that the Low Level Route is Class D airspace, although treated as Class G currently.

We have been in contact with Manchester ATC on this and they would very much like the existing arrangement to continue as the alternative is a vast increase in workload for both us and them. So far the CAA have refused to allow the derogation in the LLR to continue but negotiations between NATS and the CAA are continuing and MAN ATC are trying to find a work-around with the co-operation of Liverpool ATC.

So, unless something changes, you will require a positive clearance to enter the LLR and can only fly it VFR if the cloudbase is higher than 2000ft agl (bearing in mind the requirement to be 1000ft above towns in the route). If the cloudbase is lower then you must get a Special VFR clearance from MAN ATC. There are visibility conditions to be met as well.

This is the sum of the information we have at the moment, of course any developments will be publicised as soon as they occur.

Regards,

Lancashire Aero Club
-

If this change goes ahead, it’s going to be a rich source of airspace infringements as well as making the Manchester LLR effectively no longer exist. The pilots don’t want this, NATS doesn’t want this, the controllers don’t want this – perhaps the CAA will reclassify the airspace.

Note: Skydemon is currently depicting the Manchester LLR as class G airspace, so perhaps the change has happened and the word just hasn’t got out.

Andreas IOM

Xtophe wrote:

There is no reason to change the current arrangements when the conditions are VMC according to SERA.

This is specific to the Manchester LLR. The Manchester LLR is (or possibly was) class D airspace but you didn’t need a clearance or talk to anyone to enter this very specific piece of class D airspace. Yes, this is weird, and I’m not sure why it was ever implemented this way when the logical way to have implemented the Manchester LLR in the first place would be class E or G airspace. (Incidentally, the airspace around Barton (ATZ and all) used to be like this too around 20 years ago, with Barton wholly enveloped by Manchester’s class D, but for the slice of it around Barton you could enter without talking to Manchester. This slice was changed to class G airspace some time ago).

With the change to adopt SERA, it means this arrangement goes away, so for all practical purposes, the Manchester LLR ceases to exist (it’s just another piece of class D as the special exception is no longer allowed). This isn’t wanted by NATS or the pilots for obvious reasons. A large %age of the pilots would also end up (I’m sure) unaware of this change, and end up flying through the Manchester LLR, not realising the arrangement has ceased, and receive a nastygram in the post a bit later for their egregious airspace bust.

However, I suspect the CAA has actually fixed the issue; the Manchester LLR now appears on Skydemon as class G airspace.

Last Edited by alioth at 28 Feb 11:20
Andreas IOM
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