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Alternate and diversion aerodrome - do you ask for PPR/PNR before getting airborne?

Posts merged into an identical topic previous thread

IME there is very little evidence that PPR/PNR compliance is needed for the alternate BUT there are plenty of “little Hitler” airports around Europe where some dick might just refuse you a landing clearance. So I would choose a professionally run airport for the alternate, not some backwater dump. Preferably a real proper airport with an ILS, because

  • the main diversion reason is likely to be wx, and
  • ILS normally gives you the lowest minima, and
  • you aren’t all that likely to have fuel for yet another alternate
  • if really needed, an ILS can be flown in zero-zero, without completely wrecking the plane

But expect “interest” from the police after you land, because diversions are a standard technique for drug drops. You divert and get rid of the stuff before the police can get there.

AFAIK filing an alternate doesn’t mean anything. I know the FAA 1-2-3 rule but is there a legal requirement to file the alternate there (on a flight plan)? Rather than just selecting one and “keeping it in your head”? In Europe, there are very few airports where a FP complies with PNR/PPR (I have seen some thus notamed so it isn’t exactly zero) and if an airport sees a copy of a FP with it as an alternate they can’t do anything with it anyway. If you are a well known cowboy they could put the kettle on for you

A few airports prohibit filing as alternate. I think they do that to prevent tricks being used to get around the PNR/PPR

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

My question above was not just about PPR, but the whole range of required permissions. Mentioning Bournemouth, was just an example of an alternate; mandatory handing, so I was told to contact the handler. But the handler was closed due to Covid (very kindly agreed to open up just for me in this case, incase I diverted).

I was heading to Guernsey with a marginal TAF there, plenty of options in Northern France with an ILS – but now everywhere looks for long notice to police/douanes. I do not want to file say Dinard or Caen as an alternate if upon arrival in their zone there is the slightest possibility of being refused clearance to land on the grounds that I have not complied with notice requirements.

Likewise arriving into the UK, Border Force where you actually land (versus original destination) expect to have received advance notice irrespective of why you did not/could not do so. I have had some very unpleasant experiences of this phenomenon.

My question was not just about whether we are legally required to file an alternate. If there is some doubt about weather at my destination, I want to file a practicable alternate and have the fuel to get there safely. Diverting to the alternate and landing there should be legal and not any sort of emergency……

Bluebeard
EIKH, Ireland

Bluebeard wrote:

Do members here apply for PPR and/or give required regulatory notices for all their flight plan alternates?
There seem to be more and more requirements for ever-longer notice periods. I was thinking of using Bournemouth as a weather alternate but the AIP says “Aircraft without a PPR number will not be permitted to land.”

I would not file an airport as alternate which has PPR if at all possible. This makes quite a lot of destinations in Europe isolated destinations, as the PPR plague is getting worse and worse, but in general, you can count on someone rising hell even if you get a landing clearance.

Declaring emergency will ALWAYS these days create legal action by the CAA and the TSB as you are required to report it. Fuel emergencies better have a very good explanation or else. See various cases where airliners had to declare and got torn to bits over it before eventually being cleared in some cases.

PPR is a major safety risk, slot allocation even more so if you have to expect to be sent away if you are 10 minutes late. Both should be prohibited by law.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Declaring emergency will ALWAYS these days create legal action by the CAA and the TSB as you are required to report it.

Surely not in general.

I do not want to file say Dinard or Caen as an alternate if upon arrival in their zone there is the slightest possibility of being refused clearance to land on the grounds that I have not complied with notice requirements.

Declare a mayday.

I have had some very unpleasant experiences of this phenomenon.

Just tell them you had to divert due to fuel situation etc. They might get cocky (like police anywhere, especially if armed) but they can’t do anything. You are the “captain”.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

In spring I had to divert from EDAZ to EDDB. Usually EDDB requires a slot and handling requires preior notice or they will charge you more. But coming in as an alternate it was no problem at all. No slot issues and no surcharge by handling. After all a little confusion but I can report it feels so much better to land at the alternate and have the next 10 years the feeling to have done the right thing than to cut corners to get in and then feel bad for having done so.

Also I came up with the plan to have two alternates. One for weather issues with an ILS etc and another for blocked runway cases (someone had a blown tire etc.) as in those cases you can go to the small airfields often much closer and thus saving fuel on the diversion.

www.ing-golze.de
EDAZ

PPR is getting out of control.
Perhaps we need to brainstorm a way to ‘push-back’ on this.
I guess that’s very unrealistic.
Another idea which would probably not work would be for every pilot to send an email to every airport that he decides not to visit due to PPR………good morning I was intending to visit but due to PPR I’ve decided to go to…..

Obviously some airfields have a genuine reason for PPR but I don’t remember this B.S. from when I first started flying.

United Kingdom

Also I came up with the plan to have two alternates. One for weather issues with an ILS etc and another for blocked runway cases (someone had a blown tire etc.) as in those cases you can go to the small airfields often much closer and thus saving fuel on the diversion.

In the UK military you had a “weather alternate” and a “crash alternate” – exactly that.

PPR is getting out of control.

It is the “little Hitler” mentality. It’s everywhere. Quite big in the UK but really everywhere now. Often it is PNR so one shoots off emails to every email address in the AIP…

On the alternate, you need to be prepared to declare a mayday (unless it is easy to go elsewhere) because you are not required to plan a 2nd alternate, 3rd alternate, etc, because eventually you will end up in a field (if you are lucky).

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

IME there is very little evidence that PPR/PNR compliance is needed for the alternate BUT there are plenty of “little Hitler” airports around Europe where some dick might just refuse you a landing clearance.

There are airports which clearly state in AIP the you can’t file them as alternate.

LDZA LDVA, Croatia

You’d think especially now, airports would be laying out the welcome mat to attract the business.

But instead we have the situation where all the permissions you need means it takes longer to plan, find the details of, and contact all these yellowjackets is taking longer than the actual flight.

Andreas IOM

You can wish

There are airports which clearly state in AIP the you can’t file them as alternate.

Yes, but only a few.

I will still land there if my oil pressure was showing zero

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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