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France: straight-in IFR joins prohibited (a VFR circuit is mandatory?) if tower is unmanned

Yes the title is wrong, Peter should fix it

The jet that went in/out last week was indeed operating IFR without ATS and to be fair it’s legal for them to overfly blue circles under instrument rules during circling from IAP & takeoff on SID while in & out, but this did not “fly very well” with the neighbours !

I think the confusion on the incident was that neighbours thought it was VFR flight (VFR in LFPN is banned from overflying blue circles, can’t fly faster than 100KTS and heavy jets can’t operate on visual rules), what it seems now is overflight blue circles now is prohibited for both VFR & IFR without ATC/SAFETY case

To be honest unless it’s requested by ATC or required by other traffic, some discretion is really appreciated (just pick any topic: less noise, less fuel, cheap flying, less risks, green flight, stable approach…you name it)

Last Edited by Ibra at 04 Mar 12:20
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Sadly Toussus has been fighting to stay alive, faced with complaining neighbours who have moved in nearby. This has been going on for years. Some years ago the airfield nearly had to close. Fortunately an agreement was reached between them and the neighbours. It seems that this agreement is no longer enough for the neighbours.
The title of this thread is not strictly correct in that we are talking landings not joins and circling is still an Ifr procedure not a vfr one.

France

It’s the end of circling in Toussus !

There was a non-official prohibition of going missed during training and some understanding that one may skip MVL if circuit is not busy to avoid flying over villages, practically, it’s tough to fly circling after approach without busting blue circles (these are now treated prohibited P-area according to AD AIP), I would say it’s impossible with 30kts winds unless the pilot does arial photography or moose flying for a living

Last week a 10T jet decided to do 360deg instrument circling, he flew in CAVOK the village “like VFR at 600ft agl” and the average person ear these days is very sensitive to turbo-jets: getting invaded…

LFFA E0731/22 NOTAMN
Q) LFFF/FALT/IV/NBO/A/000/999/4845N00207E
A) LFPN
B) 2203041115 C) 2206042359
E) OVERFLIGHT OF BLUE CIRCLED AREAS IS PROHIBITED EXC FOR SAFETY
REASON OR ATC INSTRUCTION. ABOUT BLUE CIRCLED AREA OVER MAGNY LES
HAMEAUX VILLAGE : PROHIBITION APPLIES ONLY TO ACFT IN AD CIRCLING
AND FOR TKOF FROM RWY 25R.

Last Edited by Ibra at 04 Mar 11:38
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Practically, every country in the world will advise against straigh-in VFR or IFR, you need ATC or AFIS in the tower to get the privilege
Legally, what matters if there is an explicit law (ANO?) that prevents it or some info in some website text (T&C?)

While on straigh-in in UK, I was told “sorry, you will have to join overhead” at Elstree (by FISO), Stapelford (by AG), Old Hay (by another pilot on RT), in all cases, I complied as I don’t want to get in troubles with owners or regulator

Last Edited by Ibra at 22 Nov 09:36
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

The NL has a similar reg apparently – here

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

That’s definitely all true, but all you need is some bugger sitting in the cafe (of the otherwise completely deserted airport) who doesn’t like it, and reports you to the DGAC…

You do get more sympathy when you come in bad weather, actually those in the cafe don’t even bother asking how did you fly/land it is the other guy flying circuit or on the runway, who you need to watch for regrading legal/safe aspects…

Last Edited by Ibra at 04 Sep 09:04
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

That’s definitely all true, but all you need is some bugger sitting in the cafe (of the otherwise completely deserted airport) who doesn’t like it, and reports you to the DGAC…

In the case of a UK pilot the outcome might be “interesting”, under the new CAA bust-them-all policy. In the old days they used to treat DGAC letters with a lot of caution (because they were often silly, like the one I got in 2003) but nowadays the CAA guy in charge would look for any reason to send somebody 1 step down the CAP1404 enforcement process.

you are not automatically “good to Land” after you break cloud – you have to have time to assess wind / traffic / runway clear.

That, however, is always your responsibility. If somebody is on the runway (even a goat) they “own” the runway.

I can’t follow the detailed legal arguments (I can’t speak French) but if a law says something is illegal then it is illegal even if nobody is affected and what you did was the safest possible thing.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

you might also be able to claim that, in nice visibility, you were able to perfectly see all runway environment and traffic, and that a landing was safe from there.
I think what this is meant to so is that you are not automatically “good to Land” after you break cloud – you have to have time to assess wind / traffic / runway clear. Maybe the law is just meaning to avoid discharging this responsibility on someone else than you

I would say this distinction is largely irrelevant in practice. Who in their right mind will descend to 200ft on an ILS and then, instead of landing straight in, circle at 200ft to look at the windsock and other signs? Even at circling minima, with one wing scraping the ceiling, I would consider that highly inadvisable.

The good news is, that with weather that bad nobody else will be there, and AFIS is not there either, so nobody will notice if anyone flies straight in.

Biggin Hill

I don’t think that interpretation is automatic; see this thread.

On a VFR flight you can “circle around” well below the IFR circling minima.

One could argue that this “inspection requirement” is, or is not, a component of the preceeding IFR flight. I would say it is not because it refers not to prescribed circling tracks, but to flying around the runway and inspecting it.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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