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Multiple concurrent flight plans - possible or not (also flight plans with many flight rule changes)

I acknowledge that this is probably not that straight forward but I would like to explore filing two simultaneous flight plans and cancel one whilst in flight and move to the other one. I’m not sure entirely how to do that but I’ll explain why below but there could be other reasons.

I was at Sion having driven down from the mountains and I drove from a beautiful sunny cloudless day to a 700’ overcast at valley level, visibility was 9999. The cloud thickness was around 1,000 feet and the temperature was above zero. The flight plan for my TB20 was a Z flight plan going VFR from Sion and picking up an IFR join over lake Geneva routing to SPR. The issue is I wasn’t able to depart VFR because of the cloud. I could have filed an IFR flight plan but that would entail being at 16,000 feet which is not on in the distance given. I could have started the IFR departure and then cancelled IFR when I was clear of cloud and then continued VFR as usual. However I would then have had to try to negotiate with Geneva to get an IFR clearance and they have notam’d their airspace as being busy. Ideally I’d have had my Z flight plan in the system that could have been activated when my IFR plan was cancelled. Is something like that possible?

Rochester EGTO
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Isn’t the logic of an I-FP is something “unique to fly” when coms fails while IFR, then it should be just one in all systems?
However, you can have as many V-FP as you want while flying VFR?

Question: On Z/Y FPs there is no limit on how many VFR/IFR transitions one can have?

Last Edited by Ibra at 03 Jan 21:46
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think this is precisely the situation for which the US has a “VFR on top” type of clearance, which is still entirely on an IFR flight plan and under instrument flight rules.

I know this doesn’t help in Sion. Maybe one could (pre)negotiate a visual departure starting at 2000’, all on an IFR flight plan? So ATC would separate you on the SID until you tell them you’re now changing to a visual departure.

Edit: VFR on top wouldn’t work due to the requirement to respect MEAs, if this information is correct: https://thinkaviation.net/vfr-on-top-vs-vfr-over-the-top/

Last Edited by Rwy20 at 03 Jan 22:55

WillC wrote:

The flight plan for my TB20 was a Z flight plan going VFR from Sion and picking up an IFR join over lake Geneva routing to SPR. The issue is I wasn’t able to depart VFR because of the cloud. I could have filed an IFR flight plan but that would entail being at 16,000 feet which is not on in the distance given. I could have started the IFR departure and then cancelled IFR when I was clear of cloud and then continued VFR as usual. However I would then have had to try to negotiate with Geneva to get an IFR clearance and they have notam’d their airspace as being busy. Ideally I’d have had my Z flight plan in the system that could have been activated when my IFR plan was cancelled. Is something like that possible?

Couldn’t you have filed an Y flight plan with a change of flight rules to VFR at the first convenient point after Sion? Even if you had to file FL160, you would never actually need to climb that high before cancelling IFR. Then a change back to IFR over lake Geneva.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Sion has a “low performance IFR departure” procedure for aircraft that cannot get to 16,000 ft in the 20 or so NM required. It involves climbing above and east of the airfield and back inbound to be at 8,000 overhead before departing on the normal 250 degree outbound track. It is the SPR1J departure.

I think you could have persuaded the tower to allow you to depart IFR, climb VFR once on top of the layer per this procedure, and then climb out on the IFR track again.

What the tower wont do there is negotiate with Geneva Radar to change a VFR departure to IFR at the last minute.

Also, it is very rare to get the kind of low level layer you describe at Sion. Happens usually only on still cold mornings. As soon as the starts to heat the mountain slopes and cause air to rise at high level this pulls air into the valley at low level and dissipates the layer you describe.

Upper Harford private strip UK, near EGBJ, United Kingdom

Airborne_Again wrote:

Couldn’t you have filed an Y flight plan with a change of flight rules to VFR at the first convenient point after Sion? Even if you had to file FL160, you would never actually need to climb that high before cancelling IFR. Then a change back to IFR over lake Geneva.

So on a Y flight plan you can do IFR-VFR-IFR? (not just IFR-VFR)

Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Yes I think so.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Ibra wrote:

So on a Y flight plan you can do IFR-VFR-IFR? (not just IFR-VFR)

Yes! You can do any number of flight rule changes on a Y or Z flight plan. The Y or Z simply states what flight rule you start with.

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 04 Jan 10:47
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Good to know, something very useful for those who fly IFR in the UK only (IMCr/IRR rating)
Say, for a direct crossing of French FIR while on the way to CIs

Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom
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