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Can pilots cope with regulatory freedom?

LeSving wrote:

In a way we lack a common concept of what it means to take GA “seriously”. Wild west or by the book ? Forums tends to attract by the book people maybe.

I don’t know… It is interesting to compare part-NCO with previous national regulation (in my case Swedish). Part-NCO is very goal-oriented while our previous national regulation was much more prescriptive. E.g. the old Swedish rules included compulsory correction factors for take off/landing distances for other than hard, dry and level runways while part-NCO simply says that the PIC should make corrections as necessary. I can understand if many GA pilots with limited experience feel uncertain about this and would prefer a prescribed figure. Personally, I love the goal-oriented approach.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Yes. LeSving, I agree with you. The experienced Airline and Military pilots I have met and flown with in a GA setting are usually very pragmatic, they know the rules, but they also know how airplanes fly, so when they are not at ‘work’ they are able to discern what is a really important ‘rule’ and what is regulatory nonsense.

The point I was trying to make was about the GA ‘culture’ which develops, and this is similar to what you refer to as the GA pilots trying to be ‘professional’. Which professionals are the GA pilots trying to emulate? I think that this ends up being the Airlines… so it is not really a problem with the Airline industry (it is very safe and successful), but more an issue of light GA aspiring to be ‘professional’ in a strictly regulated environment, when it might not really be necessary to have such regulation.

Of course I am not arguing for the wild west and there must be delicate balance somewhere in the middle.

Sans aircraft at the moment :-(, United Kingdom

Personally, I prefer “self regulation” (pic/wildwest) or “super-state/federal regulation” (faa/easa) when “high level goal oriented”, the other prescriptive stuff in between (e.g. club, school, aerodrome, region, ga group, country, super-state…) is not well taught off and tend to be very crap and random…it is easy to be a “business killer or bureaucrat” under the “safety umbrella” when you don’t own the business or don’t give two hoots about it

ESSEX, United Kingdom

mh wrote:

Timothy wrote:
In other cases, rules have been made by regulators who simply don’t understand the modern world or the nature of real-world risk. Use of ADF for an NDB approach is an example.

Are you sure that this is a new rule and not a leftover from times where there was no GNSS?

I have had lengthy discussions with the CAA on the subject and their intransigence in a situation where the whole technology has changed around them is such that it is effectively new regulation.

Actually, the biggest issue in dealing with regulators is persuading them that the choice between action and inaction is often more important that the choice between two different actions.

EGKB Biggin Hill

There are many reasons why some pilots are tough on other pilots.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

mh wrote:

Why is that? Do pilots fear own responsibility and need someone to tell them how to fly?

I think this whole thing comes from the overregulation which for a while dominated GA to the point where the premis “what is not prohibited is allowed” turned upside down to “what is not explicitly allowed must be prohibited”. Quite a few people simply can’t believe that there is something not regulated explicitly. And this does not only mean aviation, it is for every aspect of life today.

Picture a woman doing the laundry in a common laundry room on a Saturday afternoon. In comes a neighbour and shouts at her for violating some section of the house order which sais that washing on the weekend is prohibited, words start and when the police pries apart the bodies the house community comes up and demands clarification from the owners. So the original sentence which said not to use the laundry room on sundays and bank holidays will turn into a 4 page pamphlet detailing a time table so that even the most dumb will be able to read whether to use the machine or not. Been there, seen that, drove the participants (separatly) to the ER.

Pilots generally are people who take their responsibility much more seriously than common pedestrians. Part of that is training, part of that is they “know” that flying is a privilege which can be taken away at the snip of a finger if you go wrong, so they better not be wrong. So therefore, the need to have everything in writing, whether allowed or prohibited, becomes overwhelming.

Or, to go slightly off topic, see the sheer panic in the male population in certain places over the “me too” hysteria, quite often out of real necessity? Some of my american friends today will not step on an elevator with a woman or ever be alone in a room with her in a professional or private environment out of fear of false accusations which can ruin anyones life faster than flying a Jodel through Frankfurt CTR in broad daylight and during rush hour? Tongue in the cheek remark by one guy I know sais it all, he’s given up going out and has taken up base jumping as it’s safer….

People who have unlearnt how to deal with freedom or even what freedom is will need time to learn it back, only that most of the time a freedom once taken away will never return.

LSZH, Switzerland

Mooney_Driver wrote:

Or, to go slightly off topic, see the sheer panic in the male population in certain places over the “me too” hysteria, quite often out of real necessity? Some of my american friends today will not step on an elevator with a woman or ever be alone in a room with her in a professional or private environment out of fear of false accusations which can ruin anyones life faster than flying a Jodel through Frankfurt CTR in broad daylight and during rush hour?

Some parts of the male population seem to be in need of a reality check. If they are really afraid of accusations after being alone in an elevator with a woman, perhaps they should think critically about their own behaviour?

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 08 Jan 08:49
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

MD and Lesving got the answers.
In the clubs I know, people are taught one way of doing things, how could they understand different from ‘all others ways are forbidden’ ? Training brings normal people in this mindset.
To me it is a system that perpetuates itself between national CAAs and FI. The national CAA doesn’t want to loose its power and habits so they give an ‘official interpretation’ of EU rules, which by chance is the former national text. So they continue to enforce the same rules (or pretend to). And they issue summaries of the EU rules that insists on what remains and of course not on the new freeedoms granted.
But the basic PPL guy doesn’t read the stuff coming from the CAA. He relies on his club and FI to explain this complicated stuff. And the club/FI didn’t read the new Part-xxx, they only read the summary from the CAA (because it’s much shorter, in the local language and they don’t want to be in trouble for not enforcing the ‘interpretation’ of the law).

As long as CAA think they must rule strongly a bunch of rebels, instead of just regulating a freedom towards a balance of fun vs safety.
Maybe it will change with some actions taken to EASA directly but he average Joe coming to a club will still learn the traditional way, and then drop this demanding hobby to something easier like yachting.
Friends are taking the boat license. They will take a boat for the first time of their life at the exam and (I quote) ‘nobody ever failed the exam’. That’s a bit extreme in the other direction :)

Airborne_Again wrote:

Some parts of the male population seem to be in need of a reality check. If they are really afraid of accusations after being alone in an elevator with a woman, perhaps they should think about their own behaviour critically

It is, however, prudent, where female employees, when dismissed or otherwise aggrieved, sometimes play the “gender discrimination / sexual harassment” card. Not many, but some, and that is enough. Even if in the subsequent investigation (“my word vs your word”) this comes to nothing, nobody needs the aggravation, let alone the stigma and career damage from a temporary suspension while investigations are conducted.

Biggin Hill

The school aeroclub environment does tend to keep people in their place

For most, it is hugely refreshing to escape this scene (ownership or a syndicate) but it comes with the downside of not having a ready supply of people to fly with (most schools/clubs don’t want an aircraft owner hanging around their premises).

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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