Setting a budget for the fixed cost items is a good place to start when deciding what aircraft to buy and how much flying as a minimum is personally acceptable to justify ownership. There is an almost infinite number of variables in the list below, but I would be surprised if anyone in the EU can get away with less than €5-10k per annum regardless of aircraft type, single owner. Of course, there is no upper limit 
Fixed costs will vary mostly based upon the insurance, aircraft itself, and parking location:
- Insurance is a factor of aircraft value/age, type, and depending on them possibly pilot qualifications. Liability is essential, but savings on hull damage coverage are possible depending on personal risk acceptability, geographic coverage, and by shopping around. For example, one might be ready to pass on the hull coverage for an aircraft only worth <€30k.
- Hangarage costs will vary dramatically depending on location (country, airfield) and possibly aircraft size and is often a trade-off between cost/availability and nearness to home (i.e. fly more often when the aircraft is 10min away vs 2hr, but perhaps expense is inversely proportional). Hangarage is highly recommended. I see aircraft parked long-term outside, and both value degrades and maintenance costs increase rapidly.
- Maintenance costs depend on condition at time of purchase, age, complexity (e.g. metal/fabric, systems, retractable, # engine & size, general aircraft size …. increasing MTOW ==> increasing cost). A very thorough pre-purchase inspection by a neutral party knowledgeable on type is an absolute must to avoid surprises later. Of course anyone a bit handy with a wrench can save a fair bit by doing their own preventative maintenance items.
Best is to take a couple aircraft models in mind and running a budget for each by getting ball-park quotes. That should give guidance for narrowing down choices, based upon personal budget limitations.
After 17 years in a Group, 2 years ago we found wing wood deterioration.
Our hourly charge had built up enough funds to cover the rebuild. We then payed out a share to the family of a member who died. When we sell that share, we should still have an acceptable engine fund.
Syndicate ownership cuts costs.
I am happy how this thread and the survey is evolving and thanks to all for the wealth of information you have shared!
Peter wrote:
For most owners, flying works well and the hassles are mostly on the ground, with airport politics etc. So a key part of getting satisfaction is to organise the ground aspect favourably.
I’ve recently discovered a number of rented farm fields close by where people keep planes in provisional hangars (tents etc..). Politics = very little once approved. Cost = a few euro rent for the field. There is some effort required to get the necessary permit from the CAA as well, and caution needs to be exercised to not piss of any neighbours there, i.e. keep it low key. It’s mostly ultralights and experimentals though, and I’m not sure if this is the path I want to take. A big part of flying for me is to share the fun with friends and family, so 4 seats is the minimum, and then these fields are not exactly long, so what works for a nice 2 seat UL or STOL experimental wouldn’t work well for a C172 or bigger. In Winter and when the field is soaked flying wouldn’t be possible. Compared to LOWG the cost savings would be substantial though. I think a hangar at LOWG is in the 7000€ p.a. region.
ivark wrote:
For my current P28A-140 1000EUR /month is more realistic
Interesting, thank you.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
for most normal spam cans the figure of about 1000 Euros a month to run and fly it would mostly work yes. And you can save some money by having one or two trusted additional pilots who fly it and pay you cost, as the more hours you do, the less the fixed costs per hour get. Ideally, either 60 or 110 hours p.a. is the ideal use of a normal plane, with 60 you save the 50 hour check, 110 is the limit for the yearly 100 hours check / annual.
Theoretically it makes a lot of sense to share an airplane or rent it out. Practically it is a can of worms. People just don’t give a sh-t about it and the extra cost of damages could be higher than the benefits of rental (offsets). Diamonds work more or less as they are FADEC so one can’t torture the engine, but looking at one plane I know that is available for rent it has been down for major repairs twice in the last months (big ticket items!). Another plane (C172) had a broken engine mount after a hard landing that was only discovered only after another 25 hours or so of flying. People are stupid. They break stuff and walk away – eventhough the worst that can happen is they pay the insurance deductible. They rather risk someone else going flying and the engine ripping off midflight with someone else in the plane.
LeSving wrote:
I think you first have to figure out what exactly is it you want to do. This site is, at least seemingly, grossly over represented with A to B types in their own privately owned aircraft costing 200k +, flying IFR preferably. This is maybe 1% of the private GA population, at most. This site can therefore hardly be used to represent anything general.
You hit the nail on the head. I bought and restored an old american car, and I didn’t enjoy it. I always had the feeling that there is more to do, that it’s not perfect etc… it was a character building exercise. I sold it because I did not use it enough and my only interaction with it was pouring money into it and getting lied to by supposedly top tier maintenance shops (one of these left the car out in the rain for 6 weeks while pretending to work on it).
It was a valuable lesson to me about projects, underestimation and budgeting.
I would like to fly more and not pay a fortune for it while aligning the cheese slices for safety. I do not want to rent a “publicly flown” 45 year old Turbo Arrow that’s parking outside all the time for 250€/h. I do not want to rent a new “publicly flown” DA40 for 250€/h because as lovely as it is to fly it I consider it a day vfr airplane as it has no chute. The same goes for the mentioned Cessna – publicly flown – I don’t trust other renters ;).
The Cirrus at almost 450€/h gives me the feeling I am overpaying (it is 13 years old, and a little shagged already). For now it is the plane I fly because it gives me the best usability due to the chute (e.g. coming back from Venice at sunset, flying short periods enroute in imc in summer, and if someone overstressed it and the wing breaks off – again – I have the chute). Anything shared needs a chute. So that’s C172, 182, SR20 or 22.
A perfectly “known” and maintained plane is a different story. I don’t consider mechanical engine failure to be the greatest risk. I would happily buy a 7 seat SEP and do commercial DAY VFR sightseeing flights if it is meticulously maintained and flown only by pros I know. I don’t think @Peter ’s flights over the alps are crazy – he knows his plane and keeps it maintained to a high standard and he flies it enough to be proficient, for the very very unlikely deadstick landing.
LeSving wrote:
Most people don’t want the hassles of owning an aircraft.
I can see this to be a factor. How much management effort do you smart people on here really have with your planes? Some of you are well educated in project management or run businesses – but for someone like me all the paper wars associated with a simple airplane might be more frustrating?
dejwu wrote:
Just this weekend I updated my extensive excel sheet, so what do you want to know exactly?
How much did you pay for the plane? How much does it cost you per year including flight time?
ivark wrote:
Guess its not a problem in Austria.
LOWG is blessed with many planes for rent, true. These are non club e.g. Simply rent and walk away: Aquila 210, DA20 Katana, DA40 TDI, DA40 NG, C172 G1000, DA42 “classic”, DA42-6, SR22 (240€ p.a. “access fee”), PA28-R200 etc… there are two or three clubs but I’m not getting involved there.
dejwu wrote:
with this aircraft still VFR and indeed far from 200+k investment
See above. The price jumps on C172 and 182 are big. From 50k up to 300k. Not much available in the middle.
cessnatraveller wrote:
I am not flying abused club or rental planes anymore nor would I want to worry how my syndicate members (mis)treated my plane.
Yes, me too. See above.
dejwu wrote:
I alway tell people to write down their thought on how they want to be an airmen
Ideally I’d like to combine my passion for actual flying (little airplanes) with some side business. Not to live of it (I have my day job for that) but to create something entrepreneurial. Could be sightseeing, survey flights (geological, avalanche), foto missions etc… maybe get an IRI or FI or look into DTOing (prolly not! – basic PPL stuff is not so great I hear).
I like to dig in regulatory paperwork and would be interested if it really is as bad as everybody says, or if some of the setbacks are self induced by those moaning. There is in fact a sightseeing AOC up and running at LOWZ with a Cherokee Six, so it is possible.
mh wrote:
Some planes you just can’t rent, you have to buy.
I’m mostly interested in touring flights combining nice scenery with nice destinations. I’d prefer fixed gear to access grass fields.
A BRS equipped C182 or 172 would do for me, apart from only 4 seats, but it isn’t available. Is there a fixed gear 5 seat 182?
Maoraigh wrote:
In 2015, the last representative year due to time u/s, I payed £4614 for 60 tach hours in a (6 member) syndicate owned Jodel DR1050 hangared at Inverness EGPE.
That is a very affordable hourly price!
Peter wrote:
People who got five figure surprises are mostly those who bought an old example, possibly with a misleading prebuy inspection, and then had to fix a lot of surprise stuff.
If ever I buy anything I will invest in the opinion of the most renowned pre buy mechanic for the type. No time and energy for year long struggles.
Peter wrote:
avoid buying some old wreck.
See above!
Mooney_Driver wrote:
With airplanes, we’ve been saying that for decades, owning makes sense if the usage is right. Break even between owning and renting is somewhere between 60 and 100 hours p.a (with 60 hours you save the 50 hour check, which is about 1500 Euros which translates into about 5-6 flying hours).
Right now I fly maybe 30 rented hours a year. And that only because I split costs with friends and family.
The turnout of the survey was bigger than expected. As mentioned in the thread, yes, it is not accurate, academic etc… just a quick snapshot of those who clicked it. Thanks to all! I’ll keep it open for now as some might still fill it out.
I have an Archer II down here in Barbados – insurance is US$6,000 per year for a Martini policy (any pilot any time anywhere), annuals run around US$10,000 including flying it somewhere to get it done commercial flights to and fro hotel etc., fuel is about US$7.50 per gallon, routine maintenance US$1,000 per year, no parking or landing fees here.
I pay for it by driving a twelve year old car with 200,000+ on the clock, opersting it as a company asset and through occasional rentals – I fly around 75 hours per year, my MARGINAL cost of flying is around US$75 per hour a lot less than hiring at US$300 with the bells and whistles.
So I can fly even with my modest income – my guess is I spend about 20% of my income on flying, insurance is the thing that bugs me, all but impossible to find anyone to insure it – a US airplane and US companies will not cover it, ditto GB – have it direct with names at Lloyds, paying about double what I would with a US address to buy it from.
If you consider ultralight flying everything becomes a lot less expensive, depending on your mission profile it can give you the same capabilities as another plane. However the initial investment will be quite high if you fancy a modern ultralight, but the running costs will be extremely low compared to a Cessna or Piper.
To give you a quick costs breakdown (Belgium):
- Insurance 1500 Euro / year
- Hangar 1200 Euro / year (non heated at a grass airfield)
- Maintenance 500-700 Euro / 100 hour (if you don’t do it yourself)
- Fuel (18l/h) depending on the fuel you use 28 – 40 Euro / hour
So if you fly about 100h / year you pay about 3300 Euro / year on fixed costs, and about 35 Euro / hour on fuel (3500 Euro).
This means it costs about 68 Euro / hour.
Of course this excludes special things like prop overhaul, unexpected engine maintenance etc
jvdo wrote:
the initial investment will be quite high if you fancy a modern ultralight, but the running costs will be extremely low compared to a Cessna or Piper
Cost of money and depreciation are real costs, where they exist. If inexpensive fun is what you’re after, it seems to me that the least expensive way to fly in Europe would be N-registered certified or (in UK) permit to fly classic ‘ultralight’ like a 65 HP or 85 HP Luscombe, Aeronca, J4 Cub etc. Or even a C150 with slightly more power, if the grass runway is suitable.
Hull value: 20,000 Euro for a nice one, i.e. annual cost of money = 500 Euro
Insurance: under 1000 Euro
Hangar: (1200 Euro using the number from the post above, seems low to me)
Basic maintenance/annual inspection: 1000 Euro if avoiding ‘maintenance facilities’ as with N-register
Fuel: 20-25 Euro per hour (auto fuel under STC) = 2500 Euro for 100 hrs
For 100 hrs per year that works out to 62 Euro per hour including cost of money, there is no depreciation cost, and your total investment is less than the price of a car. The only fly in the ointment I can see is where there are legal restrictions preventing you from operating a certified aircraft from an ultralight airport, purely as a result of it being certified. That is for example the case at some ‘campi di volo’ in Italy, IIRC – I once thought seriously about shipping my plane to Europe for a couple of years and that was one issue.
My first plane (which I still own) is run on about the direct operating cost basis listed above in the US, on Avgas (for convenience) which costs roughly the same as the European auto fuel that it could also use under STC. Later I spent ‘big money’ ($35K 
) on a 150 HP plane which has higher costs as a result of double the fuel burn, a bit more maintenance complexity, transponder update etc but is otherwise not greatly more expensive. In any case in my area, monthly hangar costs dominate over operational costs… so in this class of small aircraft what’s inside the hangar specifically isn’t my main cost driver.
Is there a fixed gear 5 seat 182?
Yes, it’s called 206 then.
Thank you for the ongoing input – very interesting and food for thought.
Silvaire wrote:
Basic maintenance/annual inspection: 1000 Euro if avoiding ‘maintenance facilities’ as with N-register
Isn’t this the same under EU regulation? A plane up to 1200kg MTOW can be maintained under a self declared maintenance program, correct?
Under private ownership FAA Part 91 (N-registration) there is no maintenance program other than annual inspections to a very basic generic FAA list of items by an individual A&P IA to ensure serviceability, plus owner directed on-condition maintenance in real time. No pre-planned “program” for either individual aircraft or type, unless you keep one for your own use scribbled on a napkin or on a white board in your hangar. Also no requirement for parts traceability or paperwork, e.g. no 8130, Form 1 or whatever, meaning used or NOS parts from private individuals or wherever else you find them.
