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Am I insane? Anonymous Private Aircraft Owner Income Survey

aart wrote:

UL’s depreciate quite a bit in the first few years though, which provides an opportunity for those who are interested in buying used. There is an emerging used market.

True, you can pickup 160k VL3’s for 110-120k after a few years.
If you can buy a nice ultralight, a few years old around 80k-110k the price will remain stable for sure.

But imagine you bought a new WT9 or VL3 in 2008 for 100k, now the price is 160k for the same plane.

Last Edited by jvdo at 31 Jan 09:08
EBMO, EBKT

That’s strange; you can buy a basic but good TB20 GT, say year 2002, for not much above that. I recall one which sold for 120k GBP or so, a couple of years ago. Mine would have sold for 140k GBP max, though now a bit more due to TCAS and full TKS. Maybe 170k? Operating cost is higher than a UL of course, mainly due to the fuel burn being ~40 litres/hr, but there is no comparison on the usability around Europe, and the cockpit is probably 2x the volume. No free lunch, as ever…

I could never understand why people buy 200k ULs “because they are cheap to run”, but actually their sales are very small. I recall Bosco posted some data a while ago. They fill up the halls at Aero Friedrichshafen, and fill up the GA media, but very few people seem to buy them.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

I could never understand why people buy 200k ULs “because they are cheap to run”, but actually their sales are very small.

The market for Ultralights is mainly in Europe I guess, the factories are very small, and compared with Cessna and Cirrus etc the sales are of course very low. But the difference is also that they are only used for fun flying, not for flight schools, business etc etc. How many new 172’s are sold for private flying?

Aerospool sold over 700 dynamics, JMB sold about 300 VL3’s now, they built about 4 planes a month and waiting times are around 9-12 months I think. So it seems people are buying them. However I agree the prices are getting out of hand.

I searched 3 years to buy a good WT9 2nd hand, basically nobody is selling one :)

Peter wrote:

but there is no comparison on the usability around Europe

True, but how many GA pilots do the flights you do? 80% of them just flies around in there own country and for these trips it doesn’t really matter what you are flying. With an ultralight you can do the weekly flights at super low costs, and they are still capable to do a few nice trips a year when the weather is great.

If you don’t need to watch your budget of course it’s still better to buy a Bonanza a TB20 or a Cirrus, and I know some people flying the same 30min flight every weekend in a G1000 Bonanza. But for most people this is out of reach, I think you underestimate the big differences in maintenance and overhaul prices. For example you could overhaul your 2000h Rotax 912 for 10k.

Note: When I talk about ultralights I talk about 110-150kt ultralights, not about the Foxbats etc because those are in a different world compared to a Cirrus or TB20.

Last Edited by jvdo at 31 Jan 09:46
EBMO, EBKT

Lots of people do significant flights around Europe. There is a lot of value in that. A very small % of GA, indeed, but maybe that is a circular argument. Can’t fly → Don’t fly.

I would also make the point that anyone who can splash out say 150k on a plane (any plane) cannot be all that sensitive to running costs. The difference between say 130k and 170k is an awful lot of avgas – a flying lifetime’s worth of avgas for most people – and bear in mind one is talking about the difference only, anyway.

The OH cost difference over 2000hrs is worth about a tenner an hour. Of course if one doesn’t run an engine fund then it will be a ~20k difference

Anyway, we have done this debate before a few times I see both sides, but I do think there is a little too much of the “low running cost” in the Rotax world, and a good number of owners end up disappointed. One chap I know paid out ~80k on a kit, to keep on a strip, and then I saw him buying shares in spamcans at the local hard runway because the strip was waterlogged for months…

One needs to go into this with eyes wide open.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Talking for myself .
I grew up in the italian microlight community . I don’t want lose the ability to land in the 400\500 mt grass strips that are everywhere here , hence i see an RV in my future.Usability is a two way round .
After flying for a decade I realize that 10 years old = almost new but i still think that new is better than old and that 25\30 years old is a good age only for women .
If you fly for about 100 hr\year running cost re way higher in a real tourer , 2 seats more and IFR are marginal .
I have to tell that after lurking EuroGA I’m not so sure about IFR.

Pegaso airstrip, Italy

Gathering comparable figures for different kind of flying would be a major effort and many pilots don’t want to know.
So, I guess we have to live with that mixture of believes and telltales.

Peter wrote:

Anyway, we have done this debate before a few times I see both sides, but I do think there is a little too much of the “low running cost” in the Rotax world, and a good number of owners end up disappointed. One chap I know paid out ~80k on a kit, to keep on a strip, and then I saw him buying shares in spamcans at the local hard runway because the strip was waterlogged for months…

One needs to go into this with eyes wide open.

Indeed, and that’s the reason why there are so many recent VL3’s for sale (5 on planecheck for the moment that are younger than 5 years).
The brands are selling a lot of these planes to people who don’t know anything about aviation, they sell the dream of flying to the south of france in 4h when you want it.
After a few years the realise it doesn’t work like this or it isn’t so easy.

Peter wrote:

I would also make the point that anyone who can splash out say 150k on a plane (any plane) cannot be all that sensitive to running costs.

Many of the modern ultralights in Belgium (that are not bought by the people described above) are bought with 2 or 3 people, this makes the initial costs doable and the yearly costs split by 2/3, this means the hourly costs are close to 30-40 Euro.

Peter wrote:

The OH cost difference over 2000hrs is worth about a tenner an hour. Of course if one doesn’t run an engine fund then it will be a ~20k difference

It doens’t make a big difference if you buy them new, but if you buy a plane with 1500h or an ultralight with 1500h this makes a big difference.

Last Edited by jvdo at 31 Jan 10:44
EBMO, EBKT

jvdo wrote:

this means the hourly costs are close to 30-40 Euro.

I’d like to see some records to see TCO number that low, maybe operational costs only?

dejwu wrote:

I’d like to see some records to see TCO number that low, maybe operational costs only?

Maybe It was a bit on the low side indeed, let’s say 40-60 Euro.

For example if you have 3 owners that fly 66 hours (200h total)

I posted this earlier in this thread:
- Insurance 1500 Euro / year
- Hangar 1200 Euro / year
- Maintenance 1200 Euro / 200 hour when done by a good freelancer, lower if you do it yourself. (66 Euro / person)
- Fuel (18l/h) depending on the fuel you use 28 – 40 Euro / hour

1500+1200+700 = 3400 Euro = 1133 Euro = 17 Euro / hour (66h).
Fuel 18*1,55 (Flights with Super 98) = 27,9 / hour

Total / hour = 44,9 Euro. Let’s say you would have 18k costs over the 2000h (overhaul engine 10k + overhaul prop 3k + some additional work on the airframe 5k), this is only 9 Euro / hour extra. 53,9 Euro without depreciation taken into account.

Ok sometimes you need to fuel avgas at 2,2 Euro, but 18liters is also on the high side (this is cruise fuel flow, overall it will be much lower).

Last Edited by jvdo at 31 Jan 11:18
EBMO, EBKT

On microlights, one has not to forget the weather factor and base being inside the continent, a UL based south of France, may seem as reliable as a Cirrus weatherwise and should be enough for any mission profile as a Mooney…that will never be the case when you live in far away in Cyprus or crappy UK weather ;)

Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom
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