Peter wrote:
I guess an interesting angle is that in a group of say 10 people, there is a 10x bigger chance of getting busted, so the insurance policy is 10x more vulnerable. Not many people think of that one!
I’d not thought of that.
It leads to the observation that a pilot who gets busted might not declare it to the rest of the group for fear of being asked to cover the insurance increase themselves.
However the group member named on G-INFO is likely to know something is going on when the CAA ask them to identify the pilot on day X.
Witnessed (on the radio) one getting “busted” this weekend 
We were taxiing back after a check ride in the club’s new Alpha Trainer when the woman in the tower called up the aircraft saying he had been flying in the TMA for the last (10-20-30 something minutes, didn’t hear properly) without a clearance. He said something about Norway Control never handed him over, and she simply answered that it is the PIC that is responsible for obtaining clearances, and said she had to make a report on it. She ended the “conversation” by saying: Congratulation, you are now officially part of the statistics We laughed. The funny part is her tone and language, just wonderful (if you are not in the receiving end )
He got a point though. For some reason Norway Control seems to have stopped handing you over when entering the TMAs. It has happened to me several times lately, too often to be coincidental. I have to explicitly ask to change frequency to the approach when entering a TMA, even with a filed FP. This is kind of awkward, especially since lots of the smaller airports are closed rather frequently and at nearly random hours, and you are supposed to stay on the current Norway Control frequency. Last weekend when flying home I was to fly across Røros TMA. I was getting closer and closer, so I had to ask. Norway Control simply said to try Røros, and with no answer, try the next Norway Control frequency. I got no answer, and switched to 127.5 (appropriate Norway Control for that area). He answered right away and could tell me to stay on the frequency because Røros was closed. I’m supposed to check NOTAM and all that, but I mean, this is ridiculous, since ATC already know. When you file a FP for a controlled flight in controlled airspace, you are supposed to get a controlled flight in controlled airspace, or has something changed?
I have to take this up with AVINOR, just to hear what they have to say if nothing else.
LeSving wrote:
When you file a FP for a controlled flight in controlled airspace, you are supposed to get a controlled flight in controlled airspace, or has something changed?
How do you file a FP for a “controlled flight”? In Germany you can only file an IFR or VFR flight plan (and of course Z/Y). A VFR flight plan has nothing to do with a “controlled flight” and even an ACK for that plan does not include any clearance for any airspace. In addition, in Germany you would not ask for nor receive any clearance when commencing that flight.
There used to be something like CVFR for controlled VFR flights but this concept does no longer exist (and CVFR is nowadays reduced to a procedure of flying VFR within CTRs below VMC minima).
I heard this one and thought about this forum topic :-)
It seems a bit variable with Norway control then, because on my flight back, I took contact with them and they immediately told me to contact Møre Approach since I was about to enter their airspace.
Malibuflyer wrote:
How do you file a FP for a “controlled flight”? In Germany you can only file an IFR or VFR flight plan (and of course Z/Y). A VFR flight plan has nothing to do with a “controlled flight” and even an ACK for that plan does not include any clearance for any airspace.
A flight plan for a controlled flight is a flight plan for a flight which – wholly or in part – will be controlled. :-)
Of course an ACK för a flight plan is not a clearance. Not for IFR either.
The difference from Germany is that in Norway (I suppose – as it works that way in Sweden and things are generally similar). VFR flight plans are sent to ATC units affected by the flight.
Yes – huge difference (and good to know): In Germany no-one would even check if the route in your VFR flight plan would touch some airspace C, D, CTR, ED-R, etc. and therefore no-one could send it to the respective ATC units.
That’s in Germany a difference to IFR plans because there (at least for the IFR part) it is checked before if the route is “theoretically permissible” and therefore while it obviously is not a clearance the ACK at least confirms that you are not crossing any restricted airspaces, etc.
Malibuflyer wrote:
Yes – huge difference (and good to know): In Germany no-one would even check if the route in your VFR flight plan would touch some airspace C, D, CTR, ED-R, etc. and therefore no-one could send it to the respective ATC units.
One reason for this, I guess, is that Norway and Sweden do not have dedicated FIS units like Germany, instead FIS is provided by ATC. In my experience both approaches have their advantages and disadvantages.
What I don’t understand about the German system is why Langen FIC doesn’t get VFR flight plans and why they don’t do proper handovers between sectors. That would reduce the amount of radio chatter on the FIS frequencies.
Airborne_Again wrote:
What I don’t understand about the German system is why Langen FIC doesn’t get VFR flight plans and why they don’t do proper handovers between sectors. That would reduce the amount of radio chatter on the FIS frequencies.
Because it doesn’t matter in the German system! When flying VFR in Airspace G or E in Germany, you can do whatever you want independent from any flight plan you might have filed or not. Such flight plans in Germany are for SAR purposes only and for those it’s good enough if they pull it out when you are missing.
And fully agree: As long as we know what the differences are both have pros and cons.
This has been debated to death on German forums. Sometimes, even people from DFS participate. What they say is:
Only 2% of VFR flights contacting FIS has filed a flight plan, sonit wouldn‘t be of much benefit.
Malibuflyer wrote:
Because it doesn’t matter in the German system! When flying VFR in Airspace G or E in Germany, you can do whatever you want independent from any flight plan you might have filed or not. Such flight plans in Germany are for SAR purposes only and for those it’s good enough if they pull it out when you are missing.
You can do whatever you want in the Scandinavian system as well in airspace G or E. My point was that there is a lot of radio traffic on German FIS frequencies on nice days. If FIS had access to the flight plans, you would not need to start every call to a new sector with explaining who you are where you are and where you intend to go. Only if you have deviated from the flight plan when entering a new sector would you need to say all that. And not even that if there was a handover procedure between FIS sectors.
