I see another suspension for a flight instructor having previously attended a re-education course. Is this likely to be them flying with a student? I guess they could be more likely to pop up as they’re flying more hours than the typical ppl.
Malibuflyer. The courses are also in practice a fine. On top of the course you have to get there, which may be a considerable distance and often require an overnight stay in a hotel. Other’s who have been on the course seem to indicate their practical value is limited, especially as you’re not allowed to ask questions.
Consequently people become very careful in such zones. And I suppose that is the only thing you can really do in the situation with airspace in the UK. Either only fly IFR or avoid those airspaces like the proverbial plague, even if it means massive detours. Which I suppose is the whole idea behind the zero tolerance approach.
I agree, although most UK GA IFR (Eurocontrol) flight terminates in Class G and that is easily where one busts. Only the big and pricey airports are in CAS, enabling an IFR clearance from surface upwards. I met one CAA examiner on the gasco “course” who did it in exactly those circumstances (ATC very slow to come up with the IFR clearance was a factor but of course ATC can never be wrong; no clearance = no clearance 
).
For example, if I was flying to Oban (Scotland) I would absolutely go only IFR nowadays, and then one hangs around in Class G for perhaps half an hour while waiting for the clearance, but where I am based the base of CAS is 5500ft so it’s ok. It’s much harder for pilots based under or near the London TMA who have to hack around below 2500ft CAS (so max altitude say 2200ft) while avoiding busting any of the ATZs (SFC plus 2000ft = 2200-2400ft altitude for a lot of them).
First time you get a warning letter, if that doesn’t help you get mandatory training and only after continued/multiple infringements on multiple flights the license gets suspended.
Unfortunately, you don’t; see previous posts. In the winter, when GA activity is much lower, the number of busts is also lower, and they can pack the majority of CAS busts onto the gasco “course” (capacity 20-25/month), and while this is “only” a ~£400 fine (depending on travel requirements etc), the problem is the steep escalation: once you have done gasco the next step, within 2 years, and per cap1404, is a license suspension. That is rather severe. In the summer, it looks like a first time offender gets a warning letter roughly 80% of the time. On the gasco session I did most people there got gasco on their first offence.
All the indications are that the procedure which the CAA infringements dept is using is
In Germany we have the problem that the authorities fas too often fine you with money which has very different effect based on the economic situation of the pilot but has no effect on flying skills.
There is the €50k theoretical fine, posted here many times, but even 10% of it seems to be rarely applied. Is there some data on the German fines, for CAS busts?
Mandating additional training in case of airspace infringements is actually the best thing a CAA can do!
Yes, except that the Gasco course isn’t any form of training. It is just a preaching opportunity which makes most delegates roll their eyes.
Pilots already know that they should not infringe, and do not need training not to do so. Virtually all infringements are mistakes or momentary lapses of attention, or distraction.
Training people how to fly will not solve human errors.
Exactly, but the ex RAF people in the CAA who are driving this absolutely refuse to admit any of that.
Peter wrote:
Except, you don’t; see previous posts. In the winter, when GA activity is much lower, the number of busts is also lower, and they can pack the majority of CAS busts onto the gasco “course” (capacity 20-25/month), and while this is “only” a ~£400 fine (depending on travel requirements etc), the problem is the steep escalation: once you have done gasco the next step, within 2 years, and per cap1404, is a license suspension. That is rather severe. In the summer, it looks like a first time offender gets a warning letter roughly 80% of the time.
But that isn’t supported by the December breakdown below Peter.
Peter wrote:
and they can pack the majority of CAS busts onto the gasco “course” (capacity 20-25/month),
You must have read the table on their website that JasonC pasted. In December 19, 5 were sent to the Gasco course. How is that course-packing?
Possibly; see posts further back
Time will tell.
flybymike wrote:
Pilots already know that they should not infringe, and do not need training not to do so. Virtually all infringements are mistakes or momentary lapses of attention, or distraction.
Sorry for repeating some things that have already been said in this thread!
“Training” is not only there for learning mechanical manipulation of controls or understanding the markings on charts (which most pilots do not need, indeed) but for influencing mindsets and behaviors. Airspace infringements are never “momentary lapses” or “distraction”. They are – as all other serious incidents – always the result of a series of several mistakes a pilot makes – almost always starting with inappropriate flight planning or tactics.
I’m myself based below the Airspace C (technically inside the TMA) of Frankfurt airport – therefore I have lots of discussions on that topic. When I first learned glider flying – some decades ago – the German airspace was much more complex (due to military airspaces) but in absence of GPS it was absolutely clear that one always stays away by a large margin from any restricted airspace. Yes, that meant that some flights could not be done but that were the rules.
Only with the introduction of GPS pilots started to fly the line trying to get only few 100 m close to such airspaces. And yes, obviously if you are only 100m away from the airspace boundary it takes only some seconds of distraction to find yourself within it.
Simple self test for everyone to check if we take restricted airspaces seriously enough: Would we plan differently if the airspace boundary would be a high voltage electrical fence that would kill us immediately if we cross it? If the answer is yes, we do not take airspaces seriously enough…
If we teach our children to not get killed on high traffic roads we tell them to stay away by a good margin so that nothing happens even if they stumble – we do not let them balance on the curb telling them “but make sure you are not distracted”.
Malibuflyer wrote:
They are – as all other serious incidents – always the result of a series of several mistakes a pilot makes – almost always starting with inappropriate flight planning or tactics.
The first mistake always being taking part in the activity?
When you’ve got people being busted from within the margin of reporting error of the device it does raise questions. I thought that the current strategy thought to be most effective was just culture.
Off_Field wrote:
When you’ve got people being busted from within the margin of reporting error of the device it does raise questions.
Obviously there should not be any prosecution if authorities can not prove that an airspace infringement has happened – and that does include, that the infringement has been beyond reporting error of the radar.
In a safety critical environment, however, one could expect each pilot to apply enough margin that reporting error can not make a difference.
Off_Field wrote:
I thought that the current strategy thought to be most effective was just culture.
In this specific field unfortunately just culture has proven to be not effective: until recently the prosecution of infringements has been at a much lower level but it has obviously not helped to eliminate infringements.
Juts culture is great – but if it does not lead to the right behavior, other measures need to be applied.
Malibuflyer wrote:
In a safety critical environment, however, one could expect each pilot to apply enough margin that reporting error can not make a difference.
This seems like the presumption of guilt rather than innocence.
I’m sure it’s been asked but has there been any case of a small bust resulting in an accident in recent times?
Malibuflyer wrote:
If we teach our children to not get killed on high traffic roads we tell them to stay away by a good margin so that nothing happens even if they stumble – we do not let them balance on the curb telling them “but make sure you are not distracted”.
So you think that the just over an airspace boundary is a high traffic area likely to have an accident? It seems to me that there is already a margin of safety factored into the boundary line.
I’m sure it’s been asked but has there been any case of a small bust resulting in an accident in recent times?
Has there ever been a mid air collision between CAT and GA as a result of infringement of CAS?
