Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

National CAA policies around Europe on busting pilots who bust controlled airspace (and danger areas)

My take on the politics is that somebody is applying a lot of pressure on the guy in the CAA to “do something big”. I see this sort of thing within my large-company customers; it is a normal middle management issue in these. I have no idea who Mr Big is… but the DfT is the one rank above the CAA. Normally the CAA runs itself but when it comes to the crunch the DfT will over-rule them. They own the UK Civil Aviation Act.

And the fallout from the Hunter crash, the subsequent acquittal of the pilot, the Gatwick drone farce, etc, has been huge.

The CAA was clearly hoping to be able to run this “Gasco correction boot camp” scheme under the radar, because everybody can see that if/when the details get out, most people in Class G will just turn off their transponders, and then you will be able to forget about enforcement of all those CAS busts where the CAS doesn’t go all the way down to the ground because, ahem, there won’t be any busts

And you can’t turn the whole of the UK into a TMZ, for various reasons.

Anybody who has been sent down to this “correction camp”, after a CAIT report of 100ft and a hundred yards or whatever, is going to think hard about giving up flying, except on the most trivial routes.

This very interesting read from 2010 sounds rather familiar, no? Clearly it refers to the UK CAA. Except that the CAA has very recently removed one of the steps; you now tend to go straight to the £400 Gasco correction camp.


Sounds familiar? That’s the UK CAA talking to what sounds like the Swedish CAA or some other body over there.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Skydriller you will now find Martin of AOPA UK is on the GASCo board which may explain why AOPA UK has not been very vocal.

Peter

I’ve been looking at the various stats packages in the whole. So, in 2018 there were around 1350 infringements and the CAA group looked at around 520 of those. That makes about 40%. Of those the other 60% didn’t make it to the CAP1404 list and around 210 pilots attended the GASCo course. So in 2018 210 of 500 is 42%. The stats that were published date other day shows in May that 55% of the CAP1404 infringements were sent on the course; yes its higher but you can’t declare a travesty on one month’s figures. I bet in Jan and December the numbers are lower. Why don’t we just wait while and see what comes out of a longer period (assuming the CAA continues to deliver stats).

Likewise on another forum one of the posters has said there are 3 GASCo courses in a 90 day period so i think in a country as small as England (thats where they all seem to be held) why don’t you just get up a bit earlier so save the other £200? You fly from Shoreham it would seem; one of the courses is just 90 mins from there; hardly a reason to stay overnight is it?

You seem to be just out to start a fight which doesn’t make the rest of us GA pilots look good.

United Kingdom

I’m aware of a pilot who took three days off work to attend the course. One half day drive, hotel overnight, then course attendance, then another overnight in hotel, then drive home. So three days loss of earnings, two nights in hotel, course fee, and travelling costs.

Egnm, United Kingdom

I think we are all missing the point here; rather than bitching about a training course that to be honest cant be that bad as its run by GASCo, shouldn’t we all be trying to self-learn so we improve and reduce the numbers.

So far there have been almost 40 TMZ and RMZ infringements; it can’t be that hard it comply with fairly simple rules which are even published on here to help. https://airspacesafety.com/pre-flight-planning/

United Kingdom

Actually I think you might be missing the point.

As I’ve said before, this isn’t a knowledge, competency or planning issue. This is an issue of a moments inattention or distraction, which can happen to anyone.

EGLM & EGTN

@standby

why don’t you just get up a bit earlier so save the other £200?

See here and read the PDFs for the explanation why most delegates don’t take the risk on getting stuck in traffic.

If I lived near Shoreham and had to be at the Arundel session (which you must be referring to; actually it is well under an hour with empty roads) for 9:30am I would stay locally the night before; no way would I take the chance on the A27 traffic, at any time of the day, especially Saturday. I used to water-ski on the lakes down there and the traffic was a big reason for chucking it in. Now it is much worse.

You seem to be just out to start a fight which doesn’t make the rest of us GA pilots look good.

I recommend a review of the EuroGA Guidelines. This isn’t one of the two UK “aviation beat ’em up” sites, where “getting personal” is rife (and welcome, since “kicking threads” greatly boost advert clicks). Hilariously, they used to delete any mention of EuroGA, but that didn’t stop practically all their regulars joining up here They just mostly don’t post here because they would be accused of disloyalty. Things are polite here. You play the ball, not the player. Not everyone likes that, but that’s ok since there are plenty of places on the internet where they can do that. In fact most “domestic” aviation forums are barely moderated. Historically the main issue we have had in this department has been with people who had come from these sites and expected to be able to do the same here.

FYI, yes you get 90 days to do one of the sessions but often people have existing committments and as a result many drive hundreds of miles to the next one.

I think we are all missing the point here; rather than bitching about a training course that to be honest cant be that bad as its run by GASCo, shouldn’t we all be trying to self-learn so we improve and reduce the numbers.

Nobody is missing the point. Anybody who actually flies a plane has “nipped” airspace a number of times; maybe once a year. Often unaware. Often by a 100ft overshoot during a climb. Most of them resulted in nothing. Under the new system you can’t. NATS do 100% detection*, 100% reporting to the CAA, and the CAA sends the majority of CAS busts to Gasco. On the 2nd case in 2 years, you likely lose your license. On that basis most of us will be finished. I certainly would be. Everybody I know would be too. Once this gets well known it will have a huge impact on GA activity.

I am also delighted to see your faith in the integrity of the great British charitable institution system

So far there have been almost 40 TMZ and RMZ infringements;

Given the massive traffic in the “missile alley” you are referring to (which I would never fly through nowadays) that is probably amazingly good.

* The CAIT system does 100% flagging but the ATCO can still (at some risk to himself) decide to let it go. In one case I know about, the pilot phoned to apologise, was told no busts were reported that day, but his call resulted in some shift supervisor to dig through the data, probably dropped the (decent) ATCO in the sh1t, and the pilot got sent down to Gas-co. That was a 95 sec bust, with no traffic affected.

I’m aware of a pilot who took three days off work to attend the course. One half day drive, hotel overnight, then course attendance, then another overnight in hotel, then drive home. So three days loss of earnings, two nights in hotel, course fee, and travelling costs.

For say 200 miles and UK traffic, that sounds about right

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter

I am really interested in your source of, what i can only, assume is ‘insider’ knowledge. I really would like to know how many licences have been lost permanently due to an infringement – there were none in May as a snapshot. Do you know if anyone has asked the CAA? Likewise the stats don’t show that ‘the CAA sends the majority of CAS busts to Gasco’ (about 220 out of 1350 last year is less than16%).

Dont you think that repeat infringing pilots should get some training for the sake of the bigger aviation picture?

Also looking at some of the dimensions of CTRs and CTAs in the UK, a ‘clipping’ may well result in a loss of separation when the controller obviously cannot get the required vertical separation. NATS (and other ATC companies) have to report infringements so its not really ‘playing the ball’ by hitting them or the CAA over that part. Its all a requirement of the MOR system. The Take 2 idea that, if i recall, was actually not a NATS or CAA idea is a great concept and I certainly use it when I fly.

Last Edited by Standby at 27 Jun 07:47
United Kingdom

I would be very interested to hear from others whats wrong with the suggestion of a referral to an instructor for a refresher flight?

I know, there are those that say there are some awful instructors, and others that say, instructors cant be trusted.

However, the airlines would refer anyhting like this to further Sim training. The RAF would reference to a flight with an instructor. Every other class of airspace user deals with these “problems” in house.

There are a great many reasons why this is likely to be more effective and better for GA. If you are that worried about the standard, by all means have the isntructors take a “special” course to give them the qualifications to undertake this type of refresher training.

I cant help feeling it would be a great deal better that a dusty hotel room with a couple of lecturers who probably havent stepped foot in a GA aircraft doing any real GA type flying in a very long time, or, if they have, are constantly putting there tongue back in cheek as they try and stop themselves departing from the script.

1300+ were not CAS busts. Read the thread, e.g. here.

whats wrong with the suggestion of a referral to an instructor for a refresher flight?

I think it depends massively on the circumstances. If you were navigating badly, map+stopwatch etc, then sure you need re-education on that. Probably very hard because the method is fundamentally unfit for modern times. If you were flying a pre-planned flight and got into some tricky situation e.g. ATC saying “standby” and then at the last moment say you can’t (or just not get back to you; quite common IME in some places like EGHI) and while you are doing the “dive bombing” to get down to fly the planned dogleg you trigger CAIT by 100ft, what can be trained? Well, you should have thrown away your transit request a bit earlier.

Delegate feedback is that most people on the Gasco day were experienced pilots doing the above types of things, and a few may have screwed up other things.

I think the biggest strategy change in the “new climate” is to stop doing sightseeing flights altogether. Except in easy places (e.g. along the south coast, low level) they are prime candidates for busts. I’ve done a few like that over the years. Always fly a preplanned route, with a “sterile cockpit” (no chatting), and preferably at one level, which for the LTMA region would be 2200-2300ft. Or better still take the car or train and save the plane for going to places abroad. Yes, a lot of fun is gone out of flying now… if you have a transponder.

What seems clear is that if you bust even while talking to a radar controller you will still get sent down. That is quite strange but I have met people who did that. It would appear that if you nip a corner while on say a Farnborough squawk, CAIT will still detect you. The only time you are safe is if on a squawk belonging to a “CAS owner” e.g. London Control.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top