National CAA policies around Europe on busting pilots who bust controlled airspace (and danger areas)

They expressed the intention of not reading it. One of them had been told by a non-CAA friend about some of the content.

I believe that their desire to hear from customers has been shown by their willingness to engage directly with people.

As Bos points out, this kind of thread rapidly descends into group-think where a small group sets an agenda and only the brave and foolhardy stand up for truth and reality, the rest are silent in the face of apparent orthodoxy.

boscomantico wrote:

Anyway, this thread is getting (actually, has been for a while) ridiculous, too. Is there a way for us „Europeans“ to hide if (permanently) from the „Recent threads“? It is really not a topic for most of us, plus most of the posts are now Timothy against a few others anyway…

Indeed, other than @Noe and his process which is really interesting it is going nowhere.

Timothy wrote:

As Bos points out, this kind of thread rapidly descends into group-think where a small group sets an agenda and only the brave and foolhardy stand up for truth and reality, the rest are silent in the face of apparent orthodoxy.

The agenda is the current UK airspace management situation. I think the small, brave group here are those who would acknowledge the truth and reality of ongoing UK Government incompetence in managing its airspace, both in terms of design and day to day management. Political “reality” that incorporates functional failure as a given is probably not reality indefinitely.

For me, if doesn’t matter now; if I touch any UK CAS, my plane will be going on Planecheck anyway.

I am aware this does occur, ie licence suspension for a repeat infringement – but is it permanent?

On ATC I heard commercial jet traffic being cleared in the descent to CAM at altitude 3,500 feet on a procedural service, and the controller checking they had remained clear of the 5,500 feet floor CAS to the south. What happens to that flight crew? Commercial flight deck crew having to leave CAS on a procedural (controller workload not allowing a de confliction service) and clipping either a danger area or CAS due to unclear descent crossing instructions must occur quite regularly in complex UK airspace, and is either waved through or ignored? If CAT flight deck crew are being suspended we would soon hear about it in the news.

It affects international visitors so hopefully is of value to fellow Europeans.

Getting reasonable transparency on the actual occurrences would improve respect for the system.

Timothy, I’m sorry but it is phenomenally pompous and arrogant of you to suggest that a few of us are orchestrating group-think with an agenda of some sort and that you are ‘standing up for truth and reality’. This isn’t a movie where some brave soul battles for truth. It’s a debate which appears to have a few different angles and people with different views. That’s life.

QuoteThe people at the CAA I was talking to today had never heard of EuroGA. I had to spell it for them. They expressed no intention of reading it.

Timothy you are a little tinker

They have nothing to be proud of if they expressed no desire to read it.

As to the thread in general you have your views which I respect.

I have mine. Sometimes something just doesnt feel right, and this is one.

The way in which I have been personally contacted leads me to a very different conclusion from those you were talking to today, and that gives me an even greater sense of unease.

I am afraid I have to say someone is being very disingenuous (and I dont mean you), or you were talking to the “wrong” people.

For all your claims (gratefully received) that you would bring this matter to the attention of the parties concerned many weeks ago now, it would seem this has resulted in less than nought, so if they don’t have your ear, what hope is there?

For me, its rather like with the little battle to save the IMCr, in the end the voice of the many cannot be ignored any longer.

As to our European friends, if you come here, and I very much hope you do, and read Cubs earlier comments, I think this is a discussion to be ignored at your peril.

Even though we are part of EASA, and you might reasonably think we would be instep with most other member regulators, you will find it would seem we are totally out of step, and in that I take no pride whatsoever.

BTW I should point out the only thing that has changed since this discussion started is a number of attempts to harass certain people, and close the discussion. If only as much effort had been put in to open and transparent engagement the thread would have run its course weeks ago.

I say more action, less bull!

There is now a very long list of points that need to be addressed. These all here, so I suggest get on with it.

FYI, I got a letter saying essentially that the matter was closed

I know it apparently hasn’t been the case for everyone, but I do have to say that the process was entirely reasonable for me (given that it wasn’t a “small” bust either, such as clipping the far edge of some airspace).

Short of no follow up (like my bad bust 9 years ago, which delayed some arrivals at Paris Orly, due to a bad mix of recent-ish PPL, no GPS, potential diversion due to a large CB, and mistaking a visual reference for another further ahead – I got off by going to the tower at my destination airfield, and having a call with the guy in charge at Orly), this is the best outcome I could have hoped for.

Even then, I think the call was very good and thoughtful. It was a net positive experience, so I have to say the best outcome would actually have been no letter on record but still having that call.