Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

SET Commercial ops

Bathman wrote:

But the MEP air taxi market in the UK is as good as none existent.

But why? Because there are not enough piston twins? Because there are not enough pilots? Certainly not. Simply because dividing all the costs invoved (AOC/authority/licensing/SMS/CAMO/mandatory crew training, office, crew, airway, fuel, landing, handling, …) for operating a slowish aircraft, divided by four or five or six passengers results in trip costs that no-one is going to pay. Unless they have to (e.g. newspaper/mail delivery to remote islands). The SET is no better in any of these cost factors, except that it adds capital costs for planes that cost in the millions, versus negligible ones for run-down piston twins. People who can afford that kind of money expect a bizjet for their cash. And those who can’t will continue to use EasyJet. But maybe someone finds a clever business scheme by which he can operate SETs (for passenger operations!) in a cost-effective way. Good luck…

Last Edited by what_next at 19 Dec 12:47
EDDS - Stuttgart

I had heard of only two potential AOC SET ops in the UK. One using a TBM to supplement an A2B AOC using other aircraft, and one using a PC12.

I am not sure how viable they will be – I believe the CAA is looking for higher IFR minima (600 feet and 1-2 miles) in addition to other Forced Landing considerations.

The PC12 arguably has a comfort/cost/flexibility/payload advantage over business jets on sectors up to 600nm, and typically are part of a fleet where the owners may also have shares in a mid size jet. These are mainly on Part 91 type ops using the Isle of Man. You also need a EASA Class Rating these days, I believe is the accepted interpretation, even if IOM on an FAA ticket.

I haven’t figured out the economics of a PC12 on say an Oxford-Cambridge shuttle, and this has been tried a few times before (Navajos), without success.

High value document work is still being done in the blessed Navajo, and I doubt the SET types will replace this.

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

Because there are not enough pilots?

The shortage is real – operations are closing down and any FI who can walk and chew gum these days is becoming an Airbus baby.

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

RobertL18C wrote:

The shortage is real – operations are closing down and any FI who can walk and chew gum these days is becoming an Airbus baby.

At least the good ones. The Airbus operators still do a lot of candidate screening and only take the top 10%, at least around here. But who will want to entrust the airline rejects their 5MEuro PC12s for single-pilot all-weather operations? Personally I will never fly commercially as a pilot on a SET and never-ever as passenger on a commerciually operated one. I rather go by bicycle.

EDDS - Stuttgart

The PC12 niche is quite small and tend to be ex corporate charter ops people wanting a higher paid, more flexible lifestyle. Have not seen young crew in this world. Am not aware of a serious injury accident on the PC12 when professionally flown, and yes there have been fatalities in the PPL owner flown segment. If SET AOC operations may lead to insufficiently trained crew, somewhat I doubt it – hopefully the regulator will raise the bar as will the insurance company.

Your implied 90% washout rate for Airbus officers is a bit unrealistic – the frozenATPL sausage machines aren’t able to churn out the tens of thousands of candidates this implies. Ideally the professional schools are washing candidates out at the beginning, or during the course. Then getting an FI position also implies some selection.

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

…this is the pioneering SET AOC on the PC12 – don’t have direct knowledge but word of mouth it is a respected operation.

http://www.ebanmagazine.com/mag_story.html?ident=11577

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

what_next wrote:

But maybe someone finds a clever business scheme by which he can operate SETs (for passenger operations!) in a cost-effective way. Good luck…

Here you go: http://www.surfair.com/eu/

They have been operational here in California for a while and seem to have some sort of agreement with Lufthansa.

Sadly as you say it will be the costs of operating an AOC as much as anything elses.

600 feet and 1500 meter visit will kill it.

And then we have fed ex with 250 of them…,

I think in Europe Surfair wants to use Embraer Phenom jets. Unless that has changed since they announced their plans in July.

RobertL18C wrote:

Your implied 90% washout rate for Airbus officers is a bit unrealistic – the frozenATPL sausage machines aren’t able to churn out the tens of thousands of candidates this implies

I’ve only heard this second hand – but we have an A320 “washout” locally who had said about 50% of the course was washing out.

The BA Future Pilot Programme – a friend of mine got accepted onto this and is now an A320 FO with BA – he was saying there were roughly 1000 applicants for each opening (this was around the 2010 timeframe). However, being BA and with the financing options, that was probably a more popular route for people to try than going it alone, but it does show the kind of demand that’s out there. He said nobody on his intake washed out – but then again, a lot of screening was done to merely get onto the course in the first place and I imagine BA by now is pretty good at only selecting those who will succeed and they can be picky.

The other surprising thing was all the antiquated stuff taught on the integrated ATPL course, all the avionics bookwork taught to all these aspiring A320 pilots were from the BAC One-Eleven! (And then of course when they get close to flying the Airbus, they start learning what they really need to learn). My friend was astounded at how much irrelevant crap they had to learn.

Last Edited by alioth at 20 Dec 11:46
Andreas IOM
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top