LeSving wrote:
My impression (from reading science/engineering journals from time to time) is that CERN has put out zero value the last decade or so. It’s pretty much a white elephant at this point. ITER is the very incarnation of a white elephant IMO, when finally setting the Qs straight
White elephants are quite beautiful, I am told, I would certainly pay to see one ;-)
I for one think it is great we can afford people who stare into the universe and try to figure out how it all started and developed, why things are the way they are, and at the other end of the scale wonder how things are put together. All this advances our overall understanding, and in the same way we do a lot of things in our life because they are enjoyable or interesting, as a society we should do so, too.
In the past (and, more recently) this was the idle pursuit of the very rich or very dedicated. Nowadays, it’s mostly governments.
I for one think it is great we can afford people who stare into the universe and try to figure out how it all started and developed, why things are the way they are, and at the other end of the scale wonder how things are put together. All this advances our overall understanding, and in the same way we do a lot of things in our life because they are enjoyable or interesting, as a society we should do so, too.
I agree. However in the case of fusion vs fission (or renewables) we don’t have the luxury of ‘playing and staring’ as we have a huge problem to solve.
It should be solved by fission because we have that already. It isn’t being solved because of green politics.
The only reason why fusion is not being attacked by the greens is because it doesn’t exist 
OTOH it is right to do the research because the green movement will prob99 have moved on by the time fusion is solved.
I had the impression solar panels and fossil fuels were the best tools that we have so far to get energy out of nuclear fusion?
Malibuflyer wrote:
The technology was then discontinued in the western world mainly due to the fact that beyond the wanted fuel for the reactor it also produced a lot of byproducts suitable for nuclear weapons.
That’s is definitely not the story I have read. It’s the exact opposite. Thorium was abandoned due to:
I have heard about the German reactor. It operated on uranium. It was a Thorium reactor in name only.
The company I’m employed at has a patent for a special Thorium reactor. Who knows, maybe before retiring I’ll get my hands dirty
Cobalt wrote:
I for one think it is great we can afford people who stare into the universe and try to figure out how it all started and developed, why things are the way they are, and at the other end of the scale wonder how things are put together
True. But it seems to me that CERN has reached an end of the line with what it’s capable of. Nothing new is coming from it. At the same time it’s insanely expensive and ties up a whole bunch of scientists. When science becomes all about maintaining ivory towers and white elephants, it’s simply not science anymore.
Cobalt wrote:
Nowadays, it’s mostly governments.
Also true to some extent (lots of more “mundane” stuff is done at private companies as well). When governments are involved, then politicians come along. They couldn’t care less, and don’t understand any of it. Their thoughts are simply to get their names, their town, their city “on the map”, or “in the history books”, “in the media”. Essentially pure vanity. This is also beneficial for scientists, but only as long as reality isn’t faked to keep up the good looks. I mean, a pig is a pig
Peter wrote:
It should be solved by fission because we have that already. It isn’t being solved because of green politics.
As a matter of fact, the major “green party” in Norway (they are called MDG, and consists mainly of young city dwelling idealist women by the looks of it) is pro nuclear power They are also against wind turbines on land, which is rather funny because only a couple of years ago they were 100% pro The last thing is understandable actually. A few years ago “everyone” were pro wind turbines, or at least didn’t care enough to bother. Then they started popping up en mass, and seeing how they have utterly destroyed the country side, one has to be either blind or brain dead to not be against them. I’ll give those turbines 20 years max, and they are gone forever.
LeSving wrote:
As a matter of fact, the major “green party” in Norway (they are called MDG, and consists mainly of young city dwelling idealist women by the looks of it) is pro nuclear power
The green movement which finally developed into the respective parties in most countries has a very different history across countries. In some, like in Germany, the very root of the green movement is the anti nuclear power movement. For them it is difficult to impossible to pivot, tell everybody “we were wrong and it’s basically our fault that we have such a big carbon footprint” and walk 180 degrees in the other direction.
In other countries, the green movement might have grown much later and therefor did not fall into the anti nuclear trap.
These days, the international young icons are clever enough to not position themselves pro or con nuclear as they know that they would immediately lose support in half of their markets.
LeSving wrote:
They are also against wind turbines on land, which is rather funny because only a couple of years ago they were 100% pro
To a large extend, a major part of the green movement is extremely populistic – and esp. first generation greens were not particularly blessed with intellectual capabilities. They therefore did not care about actually solving a problem. Now as the movement matures, they do not get away with ignoring the fact that there is no silver bullet and therefore everything they promote also has downsides.
Cobalt wrote:
I for one think it is great we can afford people who stare into the universe and try to figure out how it all started and developed, why things are the way they are, and at the other end of the scale wonder how things are put together. All this advances our overall understanding, and in the same way we do a lot of things in our life because they are enjoyable or interesting, as a society we should do so, too.
I agree. In days past people built cathedrals to get closer to the forces that make our world. Today we build high-energy accelerators and radio telescopes.
“In days past people built cathedrals to get closer to the forces that make our world.”
In days past people wasted surplus capital building pyramids, cathedrals, palaces, and fighting to control more territory.
After the Reformation, people in the UK used the capital for land and transport improvement, (canals at first), and mechanising weaving etc. The Industrial Revolution.
Now Governments in the West are back to their medieval habits.
China is the rational industrial planner.
(Taking @Peter’s toolmould was just incidental.)
LeSving wrote:
My impression (from reading science/engineering journals from time to time) is that CERN has put out zero value the last decade or so.
IIRC it proved the existence of the Higgs Boson?
And, like @Silvaire perhaps, I know at least one “underfunded” physicist it helped out before his later success.
