Peter wrote:
this is a must, anywhere in Europe, unless flying wholly within CAS
Why?
Are people in the UK flying IFR using VFR charts to know where controlled airspace starts and ends?
Of course. Rather, a guestimated 90% are using Skydemon, the rest is using other apps, or maybe, in some cases, still the paper chart.
Due to the nature how OCAS IFR „works“, in fact, the chart that you are referring to is not at all labelled as a „VFR chart“. It‘s merely the UK CAA half mil chart.
Yes; this is a must, anywhere in Europe, unless flying wholly within CAS (e.g. a 747 going New York to Heathrow).
Are people in the UK flying IFR using VFR charts to know where controlled airspace starts and ends?
The really funny aspect of these threads is that those inside UK ATC (NATS mostly, if talking about CAS) and most of those in the CAA cannot see any problem!
So one is just banging one’s head against a brick wall.
If your IFR clearance has been binned and you call up London Info as requested, they will speak in a calm tone appropriate to a cardiac surgeon who is about to open you up for a heart transplant – they do this all day long – and assign you some squawk and instruct you to remain OCAS, and calmly pretend they cannot see you on radar.
Nobody there “gets it”.
Nobody there “gets it” at all.
Well, they can’t “get it” because that is how the system is rigged up, it was thus rigged before they got the job, and they need the money for food, the family, the 4×4...
It’s like the infringement debate. The NATS and CAA people just say “all infringements are equally serious and equally illegal”. They also don’t “get it” at all.
Maybe because almost everybody in the system is/was ex military? By definition, in the military as it was decades ago, anybody questioning anything is a weakling and unfit for active duty.
We may as well be debating whether the regulatory burden involved in running a private nuclear reactor in your back garden is excessive.
RobertL18C wrote:
It shouldn’t be – the correct phraseology would be ‘you are cleared to leave CAS via descent’ or if CAS is rising above your current level ‘in 5 miles you are leaving CAS where (either) my service terminates (or) you are on a traffic/basic service ‘.They can’t terminate radar control inside CAS.
They actually often do there. I am frequently handed over while still 5 miles or so inside CAS. Usually in the decent. Including when Oxford only procedural which I agree shouldn’t happen.
I find this quite shocking to see how UK ATC (all cases appear to be with UK ATC) seem to forget they are a service to pilots. “Air traffic control (ATC) is a service provided by ground-based air traffic controllers who direct aircraft on the ground and through controlled airspace, and can provide advisory services to aircraft in non-controlled airspace. The primary purpose of ATC worldwide is to prevent collisions, organize and expedite the flow of air traffic, and provide information and other support for pilots”
That is standard UK procedure
It shouldn’t be – the correct phraseology would be ‘you are cleared to leave CAS via descent’ or if CAS is rising above your current level ‘in 5 miles you are leaving CAS where (either) my service terminates (or) you are on a traffic/basic service ‘.
They can’t terminate radar control inside CAS.
On the OP a bit more info would be helpful as to FL and location. A BADIM Q63 join is typically FL70 eastbound, if at A5,000 feet Bristol might have concluded you were not following Gloucester’s departure instructions (ie not a clearance)? Gloucester don’t have radar at the moment and normally you would be on a basic or procedural service, so being on a traffic service seems unclear. They would typically hand you over to Bristol for clearance into CAS and you would remain outside CAS at DTY D46 until cleared. Bristol would offer basic service OCAS, sometimes traffic depending on controller workload.
London joining is at MALBY the next easterly waypoint on Q63.
Before issuing MORs etc on an overworked ATC station I suggest starting with Gloucester to understand the lack of coordination with Bristol. It is quite typical for puddlejumper GA to be awkward to fit into Q63 at FL070-080, hence the need to be prepared to hold OCAS until ATC can resolve separation on commercial traffic being vectored/departing either Bristol or Cardiff.
That is standard UK procedure. It is a silent removal of your IFR clearance and a de facto cancellation of your IFR flight plan. Yes, they usually do it while you are still in CAS. See e.g. here.
I would like to hear a recording of the ATC actually saying they have cancelled his FP. Not impossible but really bizzare. This is really serious because you could be busted and spend 5 digits on a lawyer to get out of it. You won’t have access to the evidence; only the CAA gets it. In fact if they cancel the FP while OCAS then the pilot is 100% in the wrong and cannot get out of it, regardless of what ATC did.
Did they give a frequency for “London”? If they cancelled the FP then going to either “London” (London Info or London Control) is going to be useless.
I was going back to Oxford the other day and London Control said, as I was descending, “my service terminates, squawk 7000 and freecall enroute” which seemed strange to me. I was still in CAS at the time too.
