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Some prudence and advice are needed for a dream project.

Hey Fellow Pilots;

We are about to finish 2019 and I wish 2020 brings us the safest and cheapest flight operations. So far , I am at the " learner who is asking many questions " and “advice beggar” position here EuroGA.org. Thank you very much for your precious support. I have plans to establish my own aviation company in 2020, that was a dream since 2004. Now ; I have some resources [ around 190-200K ] and another fellow pilot to make this dream come true, hopefully not a nightmare. I know the operation side of this world is demanding and not so easy to manage,and focused on the worst case scenarios, there are always “no step” areas.

The action is plan to buy 2 GA mainstream airplanes*[C172,PA28]* , old birds but low hours with "*meticulously owned mentality* " [ I happen to lose my faith in this motto after some visits to check airplanes ] , and upgrade the avionics. I read so many articles related to the issue and the main theme is that the invested money for avionics is hardly expected to return to the vault. The airplanes are slated to fly 700-800 hours by the end of 2020. [IFR instruction on demand, pessimist guess 500 + hours.] This is my pessimist estimate , my friend’s optimistic estimate is 900 + hours.

I am here again with my questions , and necessitating your experience ; if you don’t mind to spare your time with me :

1. What do you think about purchasing 2 planes , 1 IFR and 1 VFR bird ?

2. For the IFR bird the Equipment list as follows, *is this an overkill?*
Mostly to be used IFR training,
a. Instruments can be steam gauges , but at least HSI which is slaved to GNSS steering and Autopilot with heading bug control.
b. IFR capability is a MUST, modern avionics
c. WAAS  Capable GNSS  LPV Capable / NAV / COM 8.33, ( Wish: Output 16 W )  
d. Second NAV/COM / 8.33 (Wish: second unit GNS 5/430 W )
e.XPNDR : Mode S with Encoding ALT, Flight ID,  ES capable, ADS B Out / In 
f. DME is required ,
g. ADF would be nice 
Possible upgrades in my mind if we find a good deal with negotiable terms :
For Steam ADI, and HSI or DG : Aspen Avionics
For Engine Monitoring : J.P. Instruments
SkyDemon is planned for Situational Awareness

An example follows :

3. For VRF Bird list as follows, Is this an overkill? :
Airplane 2 -Expected to cost low  Mostly to be used VFR Training, Hour Building, Rental 
a.  Instruments can be steam gauges  ( Possible upgrade : Aspen Avionics E5) 
b.  GNSS / NAV / COM 8.33  ( Wish : WAAS, output 16W ) 
c.  Second NAV / COM 8,33  Could be Garmin *GNC255*  / Bendix King KX 155A-165A
d. XPNDR: Mode S 
SkyDemon is planned for Situational Awareness.
VFR bird example1
VFR bird Example2
VFR bird “Example3”

4. Which way is better and more cost saving;
a. Find the airplane in abundance and upgrade the avionics? or
b. Be patient and find the airplane the with the avionics?
I am a person who wants to use his equipment for long period of time , and not favoring any unnecessary equipment upgrade.
This is a wonderful example for my purpose :

5. If any upgrade is needed, you think better to have it in Europe or the Sates, or the place where I find the airplanes?

6. Or should I give up before commencing every nerve baking process and spending some bucks and sit down , take a deep breath , relax and enjoy my career at RVSM area?

Thank you very much for your sincere and valuable contributions .

Last Edited by SkyWagon at 23 Dec 15:58
Fly , Cycle and Run
LTBJ,LTFB, Turkey

Great stuff! I think if you have the demand for the planes set anyway I would strongly suggest to finance/lease new ones with warranty.

1) Sourcing a used plane costs time, money and a bit of luck.

2) You will never find a plane that fits all requirements (TTAF, Avioncis, Mx History)

3) Upgrading a plane is a can of worms, it can escalate into a mess of unthinkable proportion.

4) If you invest 200k in a plane, and then in breaks/there are delays etc.. your customers will go elsewhere and you will be SOL.

If this is for a business and not for strict self use/enjoyment: Lease/Finance/Buy/Rent a new plane, with warranty!

always learning
LO__, Austria

Good luck with your investment.

Is the 900+ hours estimate based on combined total for both aircraft? I would assume so. It’s quite a lot so you will need quick turnaround for 50/100 hour checks and unexpected problems.

On your illustration, I could not see where the DME would be located.

If you have Aspen or Garmin G5 for DI/AI, then I wouldn’t expect you have any requirement for vacuum pump, so could lose the suction pressure guage.

Personally, I would not install SkyDemon in the aircraft and instead rely on pilots to take their own (I like to use mine for briefing, configuration and know it has everything pre-downloaded with my current plan). This would free up a fair bit of dashboard space for other things. I liked that you have already thought of USB power sockets.

The CDI for box 2 is quite an old fashioned design, I prefer the crosshair horizontal/vertical CDI bars instead of the swingometer display style.

Depending on where you make them available, I would suggest you budget on 500 hours operation per year rather than 900 and look on any extra as a bonus. At the faster rate, you will be overhauling the engine every couple of years or so! Factors such as the remaining engine life and paint status are significant.

Not sure I’d pay out for a second Nav box and might instead just find an 8.33 capable NAV/COM adequate. Remember you have to pay annual subscription to Jepp for separate Navigation databases!

Expect to spend quite a lot on refitting whatever you buy, and then some more debugging it. As you say, you won’t quickly pay back your investment but with such a good fit and working equipment it will be popular.

If you can get hold of a 180hp engine rather than a 140 or 150, then again this will be more popular.

I wish you luck

FlyerDavidUK, PPL & IR Instructor
EGBJ, United Kingdom

Hi Sky,

from your post it’s still a little bit unclear, what your “aviation business” is all about. “IFR instruction on demand” sound like creating an IFR-ATO. But in this case why the VFR-plane?

500hrs per plane are a already a lot for a small flight school or charter business – just as comparison: A German GA-Magazine (Pilot und Flugzeug) has 2 Grummans they rent out at some of the lowest rates in the market – and thy barely hit the 500hr. mark (some years miss the 400). Therefore you are quite aspirational.

Some thoughts on your questions:
- Buying a plane that has everything you need is always the better option. There can be lots of surprises in avionic upgrades that add to the cost significantly
- Are you sure, that 40yr old 28s our 172s are the right choice for your business? Are you in a market with demand for those planes? Many students and definitely most of the renters prefer modern planes like Cirrus, Aquila, etc.
- With the hours you plan to make I would not worry about getting back any investment into avionics: You fly them until death (of the plane) in a few years anyways so that you get back nothing. In your optimistic scenario, with 900hrs a year, even an investment of 100k in an all glas cockpit would over 10 years only add 10USD/EUR/GBP to each flight hr – definitely something you get back on the market for all glas instead of old steam.
- Your “resources” are great for setting up the business, getting the paperwork for the ATO done, surviving the ramp up time of the business, etc. For the planes you might go for financing…

Germany

Not sure what the business case is for an SEP IFR trainer. In Europe IFR training is 95% linked to integrated ATPL or MPL training, so there may be a niche for PPL IR training (outside the UK IMC(R)), but it would be small. The integrated schools mainly need glass cockpits as some of the MPL contracts are all glass. The IR component is conducted in a MEP, most of them DA42.

Keep the panel basic suitable for the IF requirements for PPL and CPL. Mode S, NAV/COM 8.33 and basic GPS. Adding an IR training panel that isn’t glass is not an obvious investment.

Assuming a good weather base and good demand for PPL training, an Archer might achieve 500 hours, not sure about 900 hours outside a professional CPL (which to be competitive will need to be glass cockpit) training business. In the UK 300 hours would be good for a 4 seat club/PPL trainer.

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

I think your estimate of hours flown is a bit optimistic. I am currently president of a flying club with 65 members and four airplanes and our most-used bird does just over 600 hrs / year. This is in southern California where weather tends not to be an issue, coastal fog aside.

Regarding the planned flight hours of the planes: I read somewhere the average annual hours of a plane in a club/school environment is about 300 hours (I don’t recall where I came across this, hence can’t deliver a source); maybe an idea to move the business case a bit more towards the conservative side?

LSZF Birrfeld, LFSB Basel-Mulhouse, Switzerland

Thanks a lot for valuable comments and insights.
Snoopy wrote:

I think if you have the demand for the planes set anyway
Yes, there is demand for the planes, but I do want to present good platforms to them. On the other hand, without any bank credit my resource gets down around 150K . Is this enough to buy a new airplane? Redundancy is lost if something happens, AOG?
-—————————————————————————
DavidC wrote:
Is the 900+ hours estimate based on combined total for both aircraft?

Yes, but I always go with pessimist side, and consider at most 800 hours for two airplanes.

DavidC wrote:

On your illustration, I could not see where the DME would be located.

DME is a must for IFR, if so it was my bad.

DavidC wrote:

Remember you have to pay annual subscription to Jepp for separate Navigation databases! …..If you can get hold of a 180hp engine rather than a 140 or 150, then again this will be more popular.
Thanks for the heads up call.
-———————————————————————
Malibuflyer wrote:
from your post it’s still a little bit unclear, what your “aviation business” is all about. “IFR instruction on demand” sound like creating an IFR-ATO. But in this case why the VFR-plane?

I would like to give more details on this : Establishing an ATO here is quite a burden and I cannot afford it. Some friends of mine whom I know since 2000, have an ATO. These airplanes are going to fly under their licence, basically rental.

Malibuflyer wrote:

Are you sure, that 40yr old 28s our 172s are the right choice for your business? Are you in a market with demand for those planes? Many students and definitely most of the renters prefer modern planes like Cirrus, Aquila, etc.

I think Cessna 172s are in demand even in Mars. Cessnas have a great reputaion here in Turkey. Cirrus is a great machine with safety chute but high operation costs. Aquila is under consideration, this may sound bizarre but people who wants to fly with me favor “yoke”. They are coming from Cessna 152 . Moreover, I am looking for low hour airframes up to 2000 hours. Some costs here are really low comparing to Europe. LTBJ is an international airport, my home base and monthly tie down is less than 60 Euros, for Piper 28 and Cessna172 or somethimg with wing less than 2000 kgs.

RobertL18C wrote:

Assuming a good weather base and good demand for PPL training, an Archer might achieve 500 hours, not sure about 900 hours outside a professional CPL (which to be competitive will need to be glass cockpit) training business.

Here in İzmir, weather is 85 % VMC ,but 500 hour is good mark for calculation. So, glass cockpit is going to make us more competitive. Good call.
RobertL18C wrote:
Not sure what the business case is for an SEP IFR trainer. In Europe IFR training is 95% linked to integrated ATPL or MPL training, so there may be a niche for PPL IR training (outside the UK IMC(R)), but it would be small. The integrated schools mainly need glass cockpits as some of the MPL contracts are all glass. The IR component is conducted in a MEP, most of them DA42.

IFR training is given mostly with SEP with IFR certification.
-—————————————————————————
MikeWhiskey wrote:
Regarding the planned flight hours of the planes: I read somewhere the average annual hours of a plane in a club/school environment is about 300 hours (I don’t recall where I came across this, hence can’t deliver a source); maybe an idea to move the business case a bit more towards the conservative side?
I think I would re-evaluate it around 500 hours.

172driver wrote:

I think your estimate of hours flown is a bit optimistic. I am currently president of a flying club with 65 members and four airplanes and our most-used bird does just over 600 hrs / year. This is in southern California where weather tends not to be an issue, coastal fog aside.

Thanks for the insight, I have been here since 2001, and you can fly here in VMC around 300-310 days.
Last Edited by SkyWagon at 23 Dec 19:03
Fly , Cycle and Run
LTBJ,LTFB, Turkey

The problem I see here is you have the capital outlay for the plane and then the students in the ATO are going to abuse it (you have no operational control). Who pays for maintenance? You! These schemes are popular in the US, and they don’t make financial sense for the aircraft owner, only for the ATO.

If you really want to own a plane and have 150k, buy something fun for < 50k, keep the next 50k for a spare engine, and the last 50k for fuel.

I don’t know about Turkey, but we see 3€/L avgas around here. A 172 is around 100€/h for gas alone. A faster one is 150€/h, and a Cirrus takes 200€/h.

We are not talking about certified parts yet… or finding reliable maintenance. It’s not unheard of for planes to be out of service for weeks, even months at a time.

always learning
LO__, Austria

Snoopy wrote:

I don’t know about Turkey, but we see 3€/L avgas around here. A 172 is around 100€/h for gas alone. A faster one is 150€/h, and a Cirrus takes 200€/h. …It’s not unheard of for planes to be out of service for weeks, even months at a time.
No step area in my mind is AOG…you are right.

I have no experience with Archer ,but I ponder almost the same as Cessna does in terms of fuel consumption : 8-10 Gallons? No circuits , mostly XC flights.
Fuel figure is special for ATOs ,and ATO has CAMO. ( ATO pays the maintenance by the way. )
Engine Reserve(2000 hours) : 20 € /hr
Maintenance Reserve : 15 € /hr
Insurance : 5 € /hr
Fuel 35 lt/ hr (1.6 USD /LT) : 51 € /hr ( around : 90 € /hr )

Last Edited by SkyWagon at 23 Dec 21:08
Fly , Cycle and Run
LTBJ,LTFB, Turkey
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