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Some prudence and advice are needed for a dream project.

If they maintain it well, ok. If they don’t (to save them money), it’s your loss, not theirs.

My fuel figures are exaggerated, but I don’t think avgas will come down in price.

I don’t quite get what’s in this deal for you?

always learning
LO__, Austria

Snoopy wrote:

I don’t quite get what’s in this deal for you?

From my previous time , time before jumping to civilian life , I have well learnt lessons . One of them is that life is too short.
My deal in this :
Above all : Enjoying the roots of flying

1. To try something rather than just piloting ,
2. To work for GA side of flying, Flight Instruction,
3. Establishing my own company,
4. Earning 30-35 Euros per hour,
5. To learn a know-how model,
6. To have my own AOC.

What is the rental price for an average airplane in Europe? Well maintained?
I am still doing the math and rendering, did not start anything.

Last Edited by SkyWagon at 24 Dec 08:47
Fly , Cycle and Run
LTBJ,LTFB, Turkey

Typical Warrior or Archer is around €180-200 per hour wet (tacho or hobbs plus a fixed ground time per sector), a bit less for some solo packages.

A well presented 172S more like €250 plus.

The potential of a wing root AD on the PA28 doesn’t seem to be treated as a risk in Europe, but to mitigate this risk buy an airframe with less than 3,000 hours if you can find it.

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

RobertL18C wrote:

The potential of a wing root AD on the PA28 doesn’t seem to be treated as a risk in Europe, but to mitigate this risk buy an airframe with less than 3,000 hours if you can find it.

Thanks for the input RobertL 18C, I am looking for 3000 and less.

Fly , Cycle and Run
LTBJ,LTFB, Turkey

SkyWagon wrote:

I would like to give more details on this : Establishing an ATO here is quite a burden and I cannot afford it. Some friends of mine whom I know since 2000, have an ATO. These airplanes are going to fly under their licence, basically rental.

I like your enthusiasm. And I don’t want to talk you out of your dream – just challenge you on the business side of it – so please take everything with a grain of salt…

If you don’t own the ATO you do not have an aviation business. You have a leasing/financing business.
But in comparison to a bank that also has a lease/financing business, you have some substantial downsides:
- You carry the maintenance/availability risk. If the plane you own and lease out has a defect, you have to pay and you loose the revenues for rental
- You carry the demand risk. If your friends have the ATO I’m sure they also have some planes in that ATO already. So if they have a student or rental customer who needs a plane, guess which plane they sell them – right! Their own planes as long as they are available – so your plane will only be spare capacity for extra demand. even 300hrs/yr seem to be completely unrealistic in such a scenario.
- This can be a valid (still risky) business model if (and only if) all of this is reflected in pricing: If you can ask for let’s say 400USD/hr for your 172 (the logic being that for this ATO it is still more expensive to loose a customer altogether because he runs away if they don’t have a plane available) – but are you sure there is enough market at this price point?

Yes, you wrote these owners of the ATO are your friends – but how stable would that friendship be if you play the “my money or your money game” every single day?

Therefore I only see two alternatives: Either you become part of that ATO by buying a share of this company (e.g. by bringing in your plane into this company) so that you are an equal partner. or you need an operating mode / go to market that allows you to acquire business independent of this ATO. You really don’t want to live from the leftovers of this ATO (i.e. customers they have to turn down because they do not have the capacity themselves) only.

DTO could be an option for you – but I don’t know how the market for DTOs is in Turkey.

Germany

DTO’s don’t do IR training, sadly…

Last Edited by tmo at 24 Dec 10:53
tmo
EPKP - Kraków, Poland

@Malibuflyer Thank you very much for kind words about my enthusiasm, and no worries about my dream.Every letter written here is carefully noted and put into my risk management analysis. That is why I am asking you fellow pilots, about your experience, your thoughts and so more., thus I can take everything with grain of salt. I am going to have my AOC next year possibly. We do not have DTOs here, no such organization. The airplane/s would be based in Izmir and I will fly with them. From LTBJ, I have a demand around 600+ hours now. 400 USD/ hr !!!? No such thing here, I guess will be around 135-150 Euros/hr, depends on the plane, but IFR hours are more precious of course, because it is in the integrated training of ATPL/CPL.

What could be an estimate overhaul cost of a Lycoming Engine, 180 hp? 30.000 Euros?

Last Edited by SkyWagon at 24 Dec 17:38
Fly , Cycle and Run
LTBJ,LTFB, Turkey

30k, budget 50k and you’ll be safe.

always learning
LO__, Austria

Snoopy wrote:

30k, budget 50k and you’ll be safe.

Roger,Snoopy, thank you.

Last Edited by SkyWagon at 24 Dec 17:54
Fly , Cycle and Run
LTBJ,LTFB, Turkey

It really depends:
Remanufactured, new or field overhauled.

always learning
LO__, Austria
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