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Are big jets really easy to fly, or is the ATPL theory just garbage?

MedEwok wrote:

Yes, it was in MSFS2020. I did lots of this kind of stuff with MS FS:X, but that had a far less sophisticated flight model/flight physics.

I’ve flown pretty much all the Airbusses on FSX and before, by far the best was /is FS Labs, followed by Aerosoft, even though they are much different in approach and target audience.

But the main thing is: To “learn” how an A32x and with it most other Airbusses tick, they will do nicely, at least in normal ops (FS Labs in about any conceivable scenario).

What I have heard from the MS2020 original A320 is that it is pretty dumbed down from the real thing, to avoid overtaxing the audience. I will eventually try it, but need a new computer first to run it. The primary things any A320 absolutely NEEDS to have modelled is the FBW logic with the AP/ATHR system with the protections as well as the whole FMGS, quite possibly with proper situation loads, where the whole plane including all the settings can be stored and reloaded. When Aerosoft started out, they dumbed that down as well, with the result that the plane became more difficult to operate! They did however change that from a totally useless product into the 2nd best on the market and I would say the very best for the average simmer.

FS labs ist type rating material and beyond, as is their Concorde btw. Not sure if they have been ported or will be ported onto FS2020.

The PDF I sent you (only discovered it today as well) is imho one of the better guides onto how to operate an A320, though there are better ones.

When I used to do reviews of simulated airliners, I would always take the original checklist of the actual airplane and see how far I got. In recent years and with real nice products, you get pretty far. Then it is nice to know if they behave properly in flight too, which is more difficult. I remember being part of a beta group testflying an MD11 and having had access to the real life planning system of Swissair at the time, we worked with real life flight plans. In the end, we got it to an accuracy which was impressive, with flight times variing around 3 minutes from the plan and fuel consumption being close to spot on. (+-1 t on an 11 hour flight). That was fun. I did over 2000 hrs on that airplane over the years, unfortunately it came to an end with FSX.

Last Edited by Mooney_Driver at 16 Jan 12:45
LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Raven wrote:

Even certified Full Flight Sim is not that realistic as you would expect.

I agree. I’ve flown quite a few in the past, most of them are based on so called “flight test data packages” which in effect are tables of data telling the sim “if this, then do that”. If the “this” is not in there, heaven only knows what it will do.

I recall flying a full flight sim for a turboprop airplane and it was almost unmanagable to fly OEI. It came to the point where I asked the Instructor how on earth a plane with such OEI characteristics had been certified, when he grinned and told me “It would not have been. On the real plane the OEI ops is a non-event”.

I remember talking to a specialist who worked on a FFS for a large airline many years ago and who is also an avid GA pilot. To my amazement, he told me that the 747-400 sim he was working on e.g. could not be sideslipped realistically, as it only had “one wing” mathematically speaking. I know that there are several PC flight sim programs which aerodynamically are superior to that. Probably that has changed now as well, this was about 15 years ago.

Mostly I hear from those who fly both that the sims are harder to fly than the real plane.

In terms of aerodynamics, the very best sim I’ve ever seen was the Caravelle III Sim in Munich. Despite having no motion, it was simply fantastic, being run by Xplane. When it came up for sale, I was extremely tempted to buy it. Having flown the real SE210-B3 sim in Paris many years ago, pilots would have killed to have the Munich one instead. Regrettably, it is stored now and no longer in use.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Mooney_Driver wrote:

The new one in MSFS2020?

I am not sure how realisic the flight dynamics of that one are. 1220 m should work out fine, there are regular A320 trips to places like Mykonos or similar. It’s all a question of landing weight.

Yes, it was in MSFS2020. I did lots of this kind of stuff with MS FS:X, but that had a far less sophisticated flight model/flight physics.

Mooney_Driver wrote:

Well for that scenario I’d find the longest available runway with an ILS. In that scenario, landing an A320 if you brief yourself a bit before the flight is quite easy. As for some ideas how to operate one, look at this file.

Indeed. Nobody in their right mind would land a big iron jet at EDVM when EDDV with its 3500 m runway is just around the corner. It was just for fun.

Thank you for posting the file, interesting read, though I would be lying if I said I understood even half of it due to all the “pilot speak”

Low-hours pilot
EDVM Hildesheim, Germany

Mooney_Driver wrote:

I am not sure how realisic the flight dynamics of that one are.

Even certified Full Flight Sim is not that realistic as you would expect.
I do sessions on FFS and can observe regular pilots flying a320 every day and after 6 months of not seeing sim they still have to do few landings to start feeling comfortable in that particular simulator while they are perfect in a real thing.
It is just a bit different than a real plane.

Poland

MedEwok wrote:

Yesterday evening, I tried to land an A320neo on my real-life home base of EDVM (1220 × 23 m) in Microsoft Flight Simulator.

The new one in MSFS2020?

I am not sure how realisic the flight dynamics of that one are. 1220 m should work out fine, there are regular A320 trips to places like Mykonos or similar. It’s all a question of landing weight.

MedEwok wrote:

Look like an A320neo cannot quite take off from 1200 m asphalt, or I used incorrect technique…

More probably incorrect weight. It should be able to get out of there but at low weight, flaps 2 or 3 and with max take of power and static power application. You would need a performance calculator to determine the proper settings and what weight can be lifted out of there.

MedEwok wrote:

I guess this is the closest I can get to the hypothetical situation “what if both pilots were incapacitated and a random PPL – who happens to be me – has to land the plane at a small GA airport (for some reason…)”

Well for that scenario I’d find the longest available runway with an ILS. In that scenario, landing an A320 if you brief yourself a bit before the flight is quite easy. As for some ideas how to operate one, look at this file.

here
Local copy:
a320_normal_procedures_pdf

Lots of stuff can be done on MSFS… such as landing a 747 at Meighs field (which we replicated sucessfully using a full fight simulator)…

Last Edited by Mooney_Driver at 16 Jan 10:31
LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Yesterday evening, I tried to land an A320neo on my real-life home base of EDVM (1220 × 23 m) in Microsoft Flight Simulator. I did not at any point beforehand familiarize myself with the cockpit layout of the A320neo, so I guess this is the closest I can get to the hypothetical situation “what if both pilots were incapacitated and a random PPL – who happens to be me – has to land the plane at a small GA airport (for some reason…)”. I flew VFR in good weather, without using the autopilot. EDVM has no IAPs.

It was good fun and I actually managed to land the aircraft fully intact on both my first and second try. On the first try, I initially dropped below the (hypothetical) glideslope quite a bit, but there’s no terrain anywhere near the approach to RWY 25 at EDVM, so this didn’t matter too much and I managed to put the Airbus down very close to the threshold and come to a stop before the runway ends, after a “draggy” approach with full flaps and relatively high N1 until shortly before the threshold.

On the second attempt, I tried to fly a more stabilised approach with a constant ROD, but by misjudging the distances and being too fast (150 kts instead of 130 kts as on the first try), I touched down only after about 400 m after the threshold. Still, I managed to come to a stop with just a slight runway overrun of perhaps 100 m or so.

In both instances, anybody on board would have survived (I guess). Notably, when I tried to fly the aircraft out of EDVM afterwards, I ended up in the trees on both attempts. Look like an A320neo cannot quite take off from 1200 m asphalt, or I used incorrect technique…

Last Edited by MedEwok at 16 Jan 08:06
Low-hours pilot
EDVM Hildesheim, Germany

Peter wrote:

The good Q is which country they did their exams in?

As local CAA staff were involved, it was implied that they did it in Pakistan.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Couple of comments. I’ve never flown a big jet, not even in a sim (though the Concorde sim at Brooklands is high on the list, when/if travel becomes possible again). But I have flown, and landed, an L-39 and a B25. Didn’t really have a problem with either of them. The L-39 is a delight to fly, easier than any piston type I’ve flown.

otoh I have a friend who is an AF 777 captain, with plenty of other types under her belt. She was talking about getting her A340 rating. She spent seven weeks, seven days a week, at Toulouse. It’s not flying it that’s the problem, it’s knowing which cross-feed does what, which bus feeds what, all that stuff. Noneof that matters when everything works. But when it doesn’t…

LFMD, France

The good Q is which country they did their exams in?

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

According to Swedish newspaper Dagens Nyheter, Pakistani authorities have initiated criminal proceedings against about 50 pilots suspected of having had other people do their ATPL written exams as well as 5 employees of the aviation authority who are suspected of having assisted in carrying out the fraud.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden
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