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Why the UK is the only country with the IMC Rating

Yes, there were two FTOs in Spain, of specific relevance. One UK run and for ever banging the NDB holds. The other run from Austria and that one would do the 15hr ICAO IR to JAA IR conversion in 1 week I nearly did the latter in 2011, but managed to get a Shoreham based FTO (long gone now) to take on the TB20, which was a better deal all around, despite some joker stuff at the end with the 170A.

Like I say, you are only as good as your currency, aptitude, systems knowledge, etc. The flight training is gone after a few weeks, and may be quite irrelevant if done in some shagged twin (the UK FTO tradition, before the industry moved to the DA42) while you are flying a modern SEP.

The IMCR is bloody good for the right sort of pilot, and is very accessible for various reasons which resemble the FAA IR (can do it at your old school, in your plane, etc). For the rest it depends on the diligence of the instructor. The full IR is between just-adequate to bloody-good for all those who pass the test, but after a few weeks these are in the same bag as the IMCR holders. And none of them will know how to fly IFR EGKA-LFAT

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I think the issue here is that neither is perfect.

The IMCr (IRR) does not contain quite enough practical, the IRR contains far too much theory (for light GA operations).

The FAA have the theory content about right. It is quite ridiculous Europe requires the onerous written exams and study that I suspect puts most pilots off, especially as most of it is irrelevant to the practical application. The practical should also be more readily available, after all if you meet the test standard of an approvied examiner that is all that should be of concern.

As is so often the case, the whole syllabus requires overhauling to bring the theory into line with real world operations.

None of this will happen of course, but it is an interesting discussion. We are lucky to have kept the IMCr (IRR). Far too many vested interest and commercial orientated blocks.

Peter wrote:

Only sky-gods fly by hand just for the fun of it

Most/all airlines require a hand flown raw ILS on their semi annual proficiency checks, and in some cases raw decelerating ILS (ie reconfigure at 4D on the slope).

Some airlines are relaxed with hand flying below 10,000 feet, although admittedly a minority.

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

Fuji_Abound wrote:

The IMCr (IRR) does not contain quite enough practical

What is missing in the practical? If you can’t reach the required standard in the time then one just gets more “practical” time until able to pass the test.

I think Peter is absolutely right that currency is king and the few weeks or months post IR / IMC for most of us is not the full extent of our flying time. I certainly think I was at my best just following the IMC, as I was using it pretty regularly. Since then I’ve used it intermittently and always pretty much wished I was more current. I’m intending to work on this more and I’m looking at fitting the GFC autopilot as it would really help my comfort level going single pilot ifr.

Off_Field wrote:

What is missing in the practical? If you can’t reach the required standard in the time then one just gets more “practical” time until able to pass the test.

I dont think there is sufficient (well in fact any) airways work including joining and leaving. i appreciate this isnt difficult, but equally it has proven a source of problems in recent times. Also the course time is probably a little light for most people to reach the required standard, although, i agree, you would just do more unitl you did. I guess as with most practical training the idea is that the length of time is adequate for most people to reach the required standard.

Entering/leaving CAS is country dependent to a large extent. Even little things like what you do when you come out of Shoreham before the tower opens, etc, varies, and is not taught. People discover it for themselves.

Well, actually, they don’t because some 99% of FTO IR graduates never fly a “normal” plane in a way us lot would recognise. They hang around until they get a job offer, preferably paying for the TR, and then it’s a different world. And that is how the whole system hangs together: most of the students never use what they were taught, in a practical sense. Only very few fly “GA”. In the UK, the annual numbers for new “private” IRs have been well discussed in many threads; probably about 30 a year, probably a fair few of those are going to the airlines anyway but show up in the stats because they don’t yet have the CPL, and against that you have all the people who are leaving aviation all the time.

If you were training private pilots to fly in the European IFR system for real you would have to go about it totally differently, and that is what the IMCR delivers, but leaves out the “high altitude CAS” bit. It is for low level hacking around the UK, IMC or not. You can actually use it “out of the box”. Whether you do, is up to you. But you can. You can depart say Shoreham, go straight into IMC, fly in IMC all the way to say Exeter and shoot the ILS there, down to minima. And you can do this right after your training.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Some instructors have told IMCR students that using it in cloud will be suicide. ( Two to my knowledge.)
The exWW2 Spitfire pilot who taught me to regain my PPL in 1987 failed to teach me to lose control in the few hours instrument in the course, so I didn’t do so when I got inadvertently into cloud several times in my first year flying.

Maoraigh
EGPE, United Kingdom

The IMC rating was my licence to learn about instrument flying.

The UK IR was the IMC skills polished to a very predictable parade ground lustre.

The FAA IR was the parade ground soldier dumped in to a jungle knife fight.

The IMCr(IRR) does hit the sweet spot on how to operate a “slow aircraft” in UK airspace structure and weather

I had two instructors for the IMCr/CBIR rating, they both had completely different views how the rating should be used, the first one had load of “IMC hours” in his private Archer (use it regularly) and the second one had load of “IFR hours” in a commercial A320 (only use it in anger)

I am dead sure the 2nd instructor has never flown a SEP engine bellow 1500ft ceiling in his entire life but the 1st one was happy to give it a go every time (reply: it looks ideal for IMC training today we only need 600ft to go up)

I think the views were about how SEP is flown in weather rather the the IMCr rating per say at the end of the day it is a “licence to learn” and currency in type of aircraft/weather is king,

Last Edited by Ibra at 04 Jul 08:18
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Good points made above, I think was the only instructor at my flying club to have a student fly a missed approach ( NDB) because the weather was below minimum when we reached the MAP.

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