Malibuflyer wrote:
I seem to be complete dummy at flying, but even in my 40 hrs. of “full instrument rating” we did not have enough time to get close to proficiency in NDB-Holds or DME-Arcs.
DME arcs are not difficult to learn. NDB holds are something else — particularly if they have to be flown to UK standards.
Btw: Why are the UK standards for holds so strict? AFAIU they demand a precision way beyond what PANS-OPS requires.
Airborne_Again wrote:
DME arcs are not difficult to learn.
Intellectually not – flying them with wind in real life, however, takes practice. And at least in my 40hrs. of instrument training there have not been multiple hrs. spare time for flying DME arcs.
I am very open: With my limited experience of an IR some 10 yrs. ago and only about 50hrs of IFr flying per year I would not be able to handfly a DME ARC or an NDB hold today (w/o use of the GPS overlay, pbviously)
My experience was almost the same, altough no VOR holds.
And my instructors all told me not to worry about the NDB hold precision – if you are asked by an ATC to enter hold during your IR(R)/IMC test, then you have to do so, but apparently you are not going to fail if you fly the hold with (how do I put it?) less precision?
Most practice approaches I’ve chosen to fly down to full IR DA/DH, but during the test it is IMC standards.
Flew one DME ARC apprach (Lydd) and used WCO NDB for initial “pretend” approaches, as if it was Cambridge, +500ft.
The scariest thing was a single zero-vis takeoff – under the hood from the runway, and the instructor helping you during the initial run.
I understand you are not tested on the hold by IMCr FE but you may get asked by ATC during the flighy test and you have to do it, I flew the racetrack 5000ft for 20min over Lydd (not even NDB as based on 4DME & Radial) it was really fun during my test as I botched the first one but the next ones were getting better and better after few attempts 
We also busted airspace during unusual attitudes but it was in the old days, now that would make you fail the IMCr test and the FE will get his certificate revoked 
RobertL18C wrote:
RV ILS is probably worth training for, especially as in the real world radar will tend to vector you straight onto the glide slope if you are a puddle jumper, and on ‘a when established descend with the glideslope’ type clearance. They might also throw in keep best speed to 4D.
This kind of stuff was explained but not actually done, and yes my experience has been that you don’t get a long time on the platform in a puddle jumper. Best speeds fits anyway with my personal technique on an ILS – flown clean and fast I find it much easier because the aeroplane responds better and you also spend much less time staring at the needles. Deviations are also easier to spot and correct because they happen more rapidly and are thus more noticeable – they don’t creep up on you.
Airborne_Again wrote:
w: Why are the UK standards for holds so strict? AFAIU they demand a precision way beyond what PANS-OPS requires.
Separates the men from the boys and provides something to fill the hours with when training candidates with good aptitude?
I actually find working out which of the three entry methods I’m supposed to use much harder than flying the hold!
It is a peculiarly British predilection, perhaps harking back to the days of Imperial Airways, although they would have flown the ‘beam’ and not an ADF! :)
I can’t say I can accurately fly a hold in all winds but I have always been fairly close as in the early days it just seemed to click. I couldn’t however manage the mental arithmetic method, it was always educated guesswork that seemed to work out.
I didn’t hate the NDB approaches as much as many who seem to reliably denounce them at every chance.
With the lack of new GNSS approaches and scarcity of ILS at smaller airports I’d vote NDB’s as an option, over nothing at all.
Thanks @Graham, that’s what I was after. Apparently no written or oral examination, right? The FAA IR has a written and a three(ish) hour oral part. Most of that has to do with operating ‘in the system’. For the oral you plan a flight and the DPE then grills you on all aspects of it while you verbally go from preflight to landing. The whole FAA testing regime is gradually changing to a scenario-based system.
For the practical test see the FAA test standards here.
1 written exam.
