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Euro and GA

Peter wrote:

I learnt to fly to see Europe, and after 2600hrs I have achieved just a small part of that

Indeed, I bought a plane in Europe for the same reason.
That last mile was the tough nut to crack though.
There are discussions on here about last mile transport (bike, e-scooter, e-skateboard etc.) but I never found the perfect fit (yet), which really limited my ability to ‘jump in and go’.
More logistics = more planning which killed some of the spontaneity I was hoping to get out of flying here.

The cause was definitely due to my expectations being high from the US… (spontaneously flying to an oceanfront airport, inflating kayak and paddling off the end of the runway out to a remote island has to be one of the most fun trips I’ve made)

It was great to hop in the plane and be in Croatia in 2 hours. That was a big mission statement, and well worth having a plane in Europe to escape the 8+ hour drive and 300,000 Germans all going to Croatia by jumping over the top of them!
With the borders now open, it’s a different story, but it was always a headache when the border would back up 2+ hours on the highways.

Last Edited by AF at 15 Jul 17:00

AF wrote:

It was great to hop in the plane and be in Croatia in 2 hours. That was a big mission statement, and well worth having a plane in Europe to escape the 8+ hour drive and 300,000 Germans all going to Croatia by jumping over the top of them! With the borders now open, it’s a different story, but it was always a headache when the border would back up 2+ hours on the highways.

And worse yet if you’re travelling on a non-EU passport (or something similar along those lines) you have to enter Croatia through a major border crossing. The little ones that don’t attract as much traffic will apparently turn you away.

@Jujupilote don’t worry about me, I enjoy this sort of discussion, it’s about GA and very informative. I have flown quite a bit in USA, lived and worked there for a short while and have seen many of the advantages first hand. But I also enjoy flying in France and as these days I usually fly diesel I don’t notice much difference in fuel costs. Regulation in general is not too much difference either, and FAA and EASA as I understand it are coming closer together, gradually, and that’s a good thing.
Certified plane ownership seems much simpler under FAA but experimentals would seem about the same in France except using them for IFR.
For future information I am not against political or coronavirus discussions, it just appeared to me that the number of posts on these threads were beginning to overwhelm collective GA posts.
And that discussion about what was going on in America was all good and everything in Europe all bad. And I will reiterate what I wrote then that IMHO there are some great things going on in Europe and on a site with Euro in the title we should be much more positive about them especially if you are trying to encourage new and young blood into the European GA scene.

France

Silvaire wrote:

And worse yet if you’re travelling on a non-EU passport (or something similar along those lines) you have to enter Croatia through a major border crossing. The little ones that don’t attract as much traffic will apparently turn you away.

Exactly

Malibuflyer wrote:

There is no doubt that US regulations – as any regulations – have their advantages. But we must also not forget the significant disadvantages, e.g.:

- Flying clubs in the European sense (with the club as owner and operator of the aircrafts, etc.) are almost impossible
- Flight instructors need a full CPL – even glider instructors
- For Towing gliders you need to be a glider pilot as well (to fullfill the 3 flights/24month PIC requirement).
- Almost no possibility of cost sharing flights
- Complete lack of a certification standard between CS-23 and the completely unregulated experimental/homebuilt (equiv. to the Ultralight/Microlight standards in many European countries)

There are many more downsides (incl. it is said that these days it’s much more difficult to become a FAA A&P than to get a Part-66 license) of the FAA system, which are not mentioned here.

If we would transfer the current FAA regulations to Europe tomorrow, day after tomorrow most parts of the Europen GA scene are basically shut down.

Oh please…. this is just total nonsense.

- Flying clubs exist all over the place. My term just ended, but as (now ex-) president of one of those I can assure you they are alive and well!
- what’s wrong with having a CPL for instructing? After all you need to know a bit more than the average PPL
- glider towing: you need to have received training, doesn’t mean you need to fly gliders. Reference here
- the cost sharing argument largely falls flat in 99% of cases when a group of friends go somewhere together. The only thing the FAA does here is to draw a clear line between private and commercial ops.

As for the EU GA scene shutting down…. unfortunately I don’t know how to insert @Peter’s animated ROFL emoji….

I’ve never flown there, or really been there even, but have no doubt the US is an easier, somewhat cheaper and far more accessible place for private GA. I’m not for one moment suggesting that there are not really nice places to fly in Europe. Plenty of the trip reports show examples of beautiful places and well run facilities. Achieving an operating environment more like the US in Europe would be great but I don’t see it ever happening. In fact I only see harder times ahead.

Aren’t two of the most fundamental differences the fact that the US is one country with one language? Plus private GA there is seen as perfectly normal. In Europe we are an increasingly fragmented continent speaking multiple languages with little in common between us and where private GA is seen as an elitist activity. Lobbying for better access (or whatever) in the US works as the whole country speaks with one voice and is listened to as perfectly normal citizens arguing for their rights in the same way as a teachers’ union might argue for their employment rights in Europe. In Europe private GA is probably better off keeping its lobbying mouth shut for fear of the wider public taking offence to what we do and then made even worse when someone explains what the LL stands for in 100LL. You’d have the same problem arguing for lower property taxes on expensive houses or the level of VAT on Rolex watches.

In the US AOPA and the EAA have huge clout. I don’t know about on the continent but in the UK there are a whole range of organisations claiming to represent GA. Each occupies a tiny niche and as such struggle to be taken seriously. The recent breakdown in merger talks between the UK LAA and BMAA highlights my point.

One of the few ways forward is to steadily grow the private GA sector and encourage it to get out there and spend its money. Once ‘normal people’ are seen to flying and there is money involved then people will start to listen. Look at the way the Bizjet sector has bought the airspace around Farnborough. I see promoting this one of EuroGA.org’s main purposes and think Peter had this in mind when setting it up rather than creating just another chat site.

S57
EGBJ, United Kingdom

S57 wrote:

somewhat cheaper

A great post but I think you meant ‘massively cheaper’!

Last Edited by JasonC at 15 Jul 19:41
EGTK Oxford

@here I’ve posted a lot of off-topic the past few days, and realize I’ve made it noisy for @gallois (and likely others) thread-drifting away from GA a bit.

The current world challenges have squeezed things and it’s tough not flying in Europe atm.
I think the general strife causes us all to be a bit itchy and this is unpleasant for all…

So, I don’t change my opinions, but can see your point @gallois and will taper my off-topic posts to help keep things flying.

S57 wrote:

Aren’t two of the most fundamental differences the fact that the US is one country with one language?

I didn’t experience language to be an issue outside of Hungary. Nearby to Fertoszentmiklos I was given a small city as a VRP and for the life of me had no idea what the controller was saying to me.
Miraculously, I found it on the map, but Hungarian is a fun sport!!

I’d say the technical details are what set the actual flying apart, like having to file a GAR for the UK and notifying customs when returning to the “EU” afterward.
The airspace is also pretty complicated, considering Belgium, the Netherlands and even Slovenia (limited airspace for us).

I thought it was fun flying into French airports using English and having the entire pattern go silent for a few minutes.
Or flying into small airports in Austria and having the controller tell me to ‘wait’… and a few minutes later someone would come on speaking English.
They locals enjoyed the challenge of having an American speaking over the radio and they got to test out their English skills.
Very fun for me, as it usually ended with very friendly conversation in the tower or cafe.

S57 wrote:

In the US AOPA and the EAA have huge clout.

This is the fighting spirit of Americans. The cool part is, when everyone loves personal liberties, it is hard for anyone to fight against them…
This is part of how there is so much support for GA in the US. Wealth isn’t seen as a curse, it’s seen as an achievement, and therefore people look up to pilots and the aviation community. There’s generally no taboo about it, even if a slight awe.

In Europe there was respect for pilots, but often a little disdain too. Like we were born with a silver spoon (wealthy) and therefore can’t possibly understand the ‘lower class’ plight. I think that disdain causes problems at the wider level because it makes GA seem like a rich man’s sport (which it is in Europe).

Being too wordy here, but part of the USGA legacy is that many pilots came back from WW2 and that’s also the period when most of the airports were built.
Americans really respected the veterans and looked up to pilots. Many of those pilots wanted to keep flying, so they formed communities, and with the lack of oversight and burdensome restrictions one faces in places like Europe, people could generally do whatever they wanted.

Want to build a plane in your garage? Go ahead!
Want to build an airstrip on your farm? Good for you!
Adventure! Courage! Heroism! Yes!

The airplane was like a symbol for how we went and won (or helped win) WW2. So people admire aviation here quite a bit, and are thankful for it.

I think that’s probably very different for places like Europe where the bombs were falling. Airplanes dropping bombs would probably cause one to associate the noise fo a propeller with destruction… never wanting to hear one again.

Very big contrast, as no bombs were dropped on the US (except Hawaii).

Airplanes aren’t scary here, they generally never were (unless people are afraid of turbulence ;)

That last bit is conjecture, as I have no way of knowing for sure, but it might hold water.

Last Edited by AF at 15 Jul 20:18

AF wrote:

The current world challenges have squeezed things and it’s tough not flying in Europe atm.
Not flying in Europe atm? I have done trips to Corsica, Menorca, Gamston, Antwerp in the past 3 weeks and have planned Amsterdam and Cannes in the next week. I find there’s less traffic and less restrictions (though I did get an annoying slot from Annecy to Gamston on Monday) than usually. I think it’s a great time to own a plane and fly in Europe atm? Gamston Avgas is 1.39gbp and JetA 43cts pretty hard to beat that…
Last Edited by LFHNflightstudent at 15 Jul 21:31
LFHN - Bellegarde - Vouvray France
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