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Euro and GA

There is no doubt that US regulations – as any regulations – have their advantages. But we must also not forget the significant disadvantages, e.g.:

- Flying clubs in the European sense (with the club as owner and operator of the aircrafts, etc.) are almost impossible
- Flight instructors need a full CPL – even glider instructors
- For Towing gliders you need to be a glider pilot as well (to fullfill the 3 flights/24month PIC requirement).
- Almost no possibility of cost sharing flights
- Complete lack of a certification standard between CS-23 and the completely unregulated experimental/homebuilt (equiv. to the Ultralight/Microlight standards in many European countries)

There are many more downsides (incl. it is said that these days it’s much more difficult to become a FAA A&P than to get a Part-66 license) of the FAA system, which are not mentioned here.

If we would transfer the current FAA regulations to Europe tomorrow, day after tomorrow most parts of the Europen GA scene are basically shut down.

Germany

The above is not accurate… or representative/ relevant.

For example yes you need to be a CFI to teach (CFII for IR teaching) but Europe requires the CPL exam passes which currently is 13 exams of almost total garbage. US PPL training is of a higher standard than here where most new pilots cannot fly beyond the nearest crease in their map (I did the US PPL, CPL and IR so I know). European training hangs together only because the vast majority never leaves their local area before giving up and almost nobody flies outside their own borders. Historically few in Europe could teach without a CPL and practically most did the CPL/IR and the 14 exams. The cost sharing rules are different but in reality it is an almost total non issue in the US, witnessed by virtually nobody there being bothered while so many renters club pilots in Europe doing absolutely no flying at all unless they can find somebody to cost share with (a truly depressing situation).

Worth noting that Euro regs started as FAA regs Many paragraphs were not even renumbered from FAR to JAA. Then everything got gold plated to satisfy the various political factions.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Europe is a great region to fly around, but the regime and costs surrounding GA are vastly worse than in the US. Australia is very regulated and difficult but cheaper than here. We can criticise many things about America but it is my opinion the absolute best place to be a GA pilot or owner.

EGTK Oxford

Peter wrote:

Worth noting that Euro regs started as FAA regs Many paragraphs were not even renumbered from FAR to JAA.

And they even kept the imperial units in some parts of CS-23 when they’ve copied it from harmonised it with the FAR-23.

EGTR

JasonC wrote:

Europe is a great region to fly around, but the regime and costs surrounding GA are vastly worse than in the US. Australia is very regulated and difficult but cheaper than here. We can criticise many things about America but it is my opinion the absolute best place to be a GA pilot or owner.

Yes, I would agree overall, that is my experience.

My only caveat is I havent found Oz too bad at all, but I think they may have improved from what I have heard. Of course in Oz once you get away from the main cities (and that is of course most of the time) no one cares, and you are pretty much on your own anyway.

Fuji_Abound wrote:

My only caveat is I havent found Oz too bad at all, but I think they may have improved from what I have heard. Of course in Oz once you get away from the main cities (and that is of course most of the time) no one cares, and you are pretty much on your own anyway.

It has improved in some ways but new things like the security regime are worse than the UK. Now a lot isn’t really enforced (particularly in the bush) but the regulator is very slow.

EGTK Oxford

Yes, I would agree the security regime is all a little silly. I used an agent last time and that seemed to help enormously. You are of course correct once out in the bush no one cares. On the west coast the strnage thing is I was never asked for my security card once anywhere – oh well.

Once Jason posted pictures of JFK and commented « no slots needed », I guess the discussion Europe vs US was over.

But I don’t think we please Gallois by repeating it over and over again:)

I don’t have much flights to report. Maybe in a near future…

LFPT, LFEH

Snoopy wrote:

@silvaire Care to please explain this a bit more? How can it be low when you are exempt? Just want to grasp what you are trying to say. Thank you!

I wasn’t as clear as I might’ve been… I’ll try again.

In my area there is a 1% of assessed value per year County property tax applicable to aircraft and boats. If the aircraft is more than IIRC 40 years old, there is a program in which you print out a form, put the aircraft on public display 12 times in a calendar year, get a sign off at each event from the organizer, and then submit the completed form at the end of the year in lieu of paying property tax. The whole thing is pretty casual, organizers appoint themselves and there are monthly events at many of the local airports. You could fake the signatures but it’s kind of a community regulated honor system thing. People socialize and look at other people’s planes and a few people from the area bring their kids etc.

Since a large proportion of little puddle jumper aircraft owned by hobbyists like me are old enough, in general paying property tax is optional for us. The County knows this and is very friendly with assessed value of such aircraft, because if they annoy the owners enough, they will display the aircraft and not pay tax. The tax collectors attention is anyway more productively directed to more valuable aircraft and boats, so I think they see any money collected from us who are too lazy to display our planes as a marginal benefit.

There is a man at the airport who has a P-51 in a hangar near mine. He’s had it a long time but it hasn’t flown in years and mostly sits in its T-hangar. The owner and his wife come to airport and sit in the hangar, talking to people about the plane. That is their aviation activity (to each his own), but you can be sure that it is displayed 12 times a year!

Hope that is clearer

Last Edited by Silvaire at 15 Jul 14:47

And just to lighten the tone further, here’s a typical Montana FBO with free accommodation with kitchen and bunk beds, plus a free car (you pay the gas):



NeilC
EGPT, LMML
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