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PIC, or passenger?

Don't you need to fill in the name of the PIC in the logbook before commencing the flight?

With nothing written on paper the average insurance company would opt out and nobody would get anything.

The pilot who acts as PIC may only log PIC time while they are the sole manipulator of the controls unless they are also a safety pilot required under 91.109.

Is that really the case in the US? The PIC can't log PIC time while someone else is handling the controls? So an instructor can't log PIC time while his student is handling the controls? A captain on a 737 can't log PIC time while his co-pilot is handling the controls?

Don't you need to fill in the name of the PIC in the logbook before commencing the flight? I think this is a club thing, and so long as the log books if filled up in a reasonable time after the flight, you have complied with the law.

Peter's question is indeed an interesting one. It in fact brings to mind two situations which I regularly find myself in.

  1. I often fly with someone who is an instructor. We each do a leg each, and act as PIC on our own legs. However as the instructor is used to flying from the right hand seat while instructing, he like to stay there even when PIC and not instructing. It would make it easier to blur the lines of who was PIC on any flight if there was only one survivor. I'm in the left seat and he in the right.

  2. I often fly with another PPL, and likewise we will do a leg each. I usually do all the paperwork/planning. In Ireland we need to file a flight plan for any flight going through controlled airspace, and since we're based inside a class C CTR, that pretty much means every flight. I often put my name as PIC on both flight plans as we don't usually decide who's doing which leg until we get to the aircraft. So often the other pilot is PIC but my name is on the flight plan. Again it would make it easier to muddy the water about who was PIC.

A thought provoking post Peter. Thank you.

Colm

EIWT Weston, Ireland

I think the solution is to do as NCYankee says which is to write down who will be what and leave it on the ground, with somebody safe.

Probably, in a "club" situation, the PIC is pre-nominated anyway. Also the "tech log" exists only in schools/clubs.

I think the "instructor passenger" scenario is a real can of worms, and anybody with the slightest "instructor" qualification (a CRI being the most easily doable by far) is going to be extra vulnerable to an allegation of being a non-passenger should anything go wrong.

This also touches on the UK AOPA mentoring scheme, for which AOPA introduced some sort of insurance but nobody wants to say openly what exactly the insurance was for (my information is that the legal advice they got was that the mentor was not liable, because of an express pre-existing agreement that he would never be PIC, but AOPA could be liable for being the introducer).

With nothing written on paper the average insurance company would opt out and nobody would get anything.

Sure, but somebody had to be the PIC, and if enough money is involved and the target has a nice house which is all paid off, personal injury lawyers will take it on on a commission basis.

A captain on a 737 can't log PIC time while his co-pilot is handling the controls?

I think that works differently, in multi pilot ops, which are not Part 61. They are something like Part 125 (?). In the same way, the pilots do not need to do their night landings to carry passengers at night (which would be obviously stupid). But funnily enough it was this night passenger currency issue which led to the JAA IR bodge whereby having a JAA IR absolves you having to have any night currency for night passenger carriage!

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Don't you need to fill in the name of the PIC in the logbook before commencing the flight?

Which logbook do you refer to? For my N reg, I fill out the plane's tech log before the flight, but my personal flying logbook I fill out afterwards. I presume you mean the tech log?

If a private pilot flies to a business meeting, they can be compensated as long as the flight is incidental to their job, but they may not carry a passenger or property.

That isn't true. They can't be paid for taking them. If the flying is incidental to the business you can take clients or employees.

EGTK Oxford

USA v. Europe... not the same.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I am referring to FAA Rules.

EGTK Oxford

USA v. Europe... not the same.

Same goes for the logbook comments. In the US, the only logbooks associated with an aircraft are maintenance logbooks recording work performed on the plane and referenced to time in service. No record is kept at all of who flies the aircraft, or (obviously) who was PIC if there were two pilots on board.

Don't you need to fill in the name of the PIC in the logbook before commencing the flight?

Not in the US. In fact, you don't need to make a logbook entry except for certain purposes, such as meeting rating requirements or currency. Regardless, what you put in the logbook in the PIC column does not in any way determine who is acting as PIC.

KUZA, United States
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