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PC-12 down in Milan Linate

This is as good as any exercise to train in a sim. Wonder if sims are capable of this, but it should be a massive eye opener for many.

And we’re coming back to the most probable cause of this accident: some (maybe even minor) problem escalated within seconds to non-recoverable steep dive triggered by loss of spatial orientation.

LDZA LDVA, Croatia

During ma last TR, we had this kind of training (either some failed instruments and the need to identify the good ones) x and or partial panel off. Even the hardest being total electric failure using the 2 small self powered central backup on an ILS in IMC with strong crosswind. Disorientation comes fast and the fact that you have to keep the eyes going sideways scanning 2 small instruments (AI with speed and alt +HSI) is hard and tiring. Either you are well trained for this very rare occasion, or you are PF and a PM is helping you to keep all under control.
This is a very difficult exercice.

LFMD, France

Ibra wrote:

In gliders, we used to winch into low clouds, +45deg nose up entering low clouds with no power and 800ft agl bellow, you release cable push the nose and it will recover

To be clear, I don’t advocate adding power as the first action in a nose-high abnormal attitude. I advocate first getting the nose down. What I’m arguing against is that you should (first) reduce power in this situation.

I’ve never done winch starts with gliders, but would it be a good idea to pull the airbrakes as first action after cable release? That would correspond to cutting power in a powered aircraft.

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 08 Oct 07:44
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

You lower the nose and increase power at the same time during recovery from an unusual condition in the climb configuration.
Normally an examiner will set you in a steep climbing or descending turn. Of course control pitch, roll and yawn comes first but power is very hot on its heels. Hence my reference to driving a car going into a bend you turn the steering wheel and add power, if you turn the steering wheel and you reduce power you’ll lose control of the car. If you drive racing cars you were taught to toe and heel which allowed the drivers to take corners faster as they would brake and accelerate almost together, thus giving them total control.
I agree with @greg_mp the first time I entered a white out immediately after take off was very disorienting, but nowhere near as bad as when I lost AI and HSI in IMC it did take more than a few.seconds to sort my head out.
@Ibra can you point me in the direction of the many light twin accidents due to too much power you wrote about? I would like to read more.

France

Freudian slip there I meant yaw not yawn, of course.🙂

France

How can a plane fly straight down in a straight line trajectory?

If the elevator came off or the pitch trim system failed, then yes, but otherwise as soon as speed builds up the pitch trim will generate the speed control feedback and pitch it up again. This is why in flight you can’t just push down on the yoke if you want to descend; all you get is the speed building up rapidly and you have to push harder and harder.

Maybe all the airframe parts are accounted for at the crash site but perhaps something came off but remained attached.

@gallois there is a 2 hour edit window on EuroGA; you can edit your own posts for 2 hrs.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I’ve never done winch starts with gliders, but would it be a good idea to pull the airbrakes as first action after cable release? That would correspond to cutting power in a powered aircraft.

I agree opening airbreaks could get you to stall earlier (if you keep pull on stick ofc) just as much as reducing power but we are assuming you have no clue what aircraft attitude is? in that case the for gliders in clouds is it’s trim, relax pressure on stick and open airbrakes

Remember we are talking about what to do in spatial disorientation or no/wrong instruments, if you know what the aircraft is doing, it’s a different story…anyway, the only way an aircraft can show gigantic VSI figures is full power stalls, spins or dives, without power the other scenarios are “less deadly” even with muppet at the controls (one can recover from ANY unusual attitude by reducing power and centralizing controls without making his situation worse than it was)

I hand you an aircraft with +70deg pitch & -110deg bank on it’s mechanical gyro (likely drunk: tilted, topled or will lag) in IMC what do you do first?

gallois wrote:

can you point me in the direction of the many light twin accidents due to too much power you wrote about? I would like to read more.

All loss of control accidents on one engine, if ASI<Vmca you idle on both engines and it should recover (as long as angle of attack is low, it’s very simple, I don’t think there are other choices?)

Last Edited by Ibra at 08 Oct 08:13
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Ibra wrote:

I hand you an aircraft with +70deg pitch & -110deg bank and mechanical gyro in IMC what do you do first?

With a mechanical AI, that situation may be unrecoverable as the gyro would most likely have toppled and a turn coordinator would also not help in such an extreme attitude.

Anyway, I would first of all look at the ASI and decide from there. Low (or decreasing) speed: get the nose down, apply power, roll wings level, recover level flight. High (or increasing) speed: cut power, unload if necessary, roll wings level, recover level flight. (At least that’s what I hope I would do in that situation. I’ve never experienced it in training.)

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 08 Oct 08:43
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

How can a plane fly straight down in a straight line trajectory? If the elevator came off or the pitch trim system failed, then yes, but otherwise as soon as speed builds up the pitch trim will generate the speed control feedback and pitch it up again. This is why in flight you can’t just push down on the yoke if you want to descend; all you get is the speed building up rapidly and you have to push harder and harder.

5000ft isn’t much. Coming down straight is possible after being inverted and pulling.

always learning
LO__, Austria

Snoopy wrote:

5000ft isn’t much. Coming down straight is possible after being inverted and pulling.

However on idle power those 5000ft may last much longer than on full power. The only risk when cutting power is a spin, but then again most airplanes don’t really enter a spin or leave the spin on its own, if not treated wrong. You typically have to induce the situation where lift is lost only on one wing, and that situation be maintained over a period of time. This is not valid for twins, due to their high mass far off the center, which might maintain a spin condition longer than singles.

I’ve done a lot of spin training in gliders, because there you go really close to the point of where you can enter a spin (flying as slow as possible circling in thermals, for example). And there are gliders which spin awkwardly. Of course the acro gliders, but that’s a class of its own. I remember the Puchacz which surprisingly remained more than another three full rounds spinning around after applying reverse rudder. Or the Blanik. On the other side, other gliders are near impossible to enter a stable spin, like the ASK21.

Of course, spinning in clouds is close to a death sentence. And it’s really bad that a typical SEP is not allowed to spin intentionally, so you can’t really train on that condition.

Last Edited by UdoR at 08 Oct 09:03
Germany
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