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French National IR

I’m not reading it the same way; it says if you have an IR restricted to French airspace because of a lack of EN LP, you can remove that restriction by proving EN LP. As far as I can see it doesn’t talk about the French national IR.

EGTF, LFTF

Wasn’t the French national IR limited to F-regs and French airspace?

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

@denopa is right

La présente note ne traite pas de la qualification nationale de vol aux instruments de pilote privé avion (F/N-IR) conforme aux exigences de l’arrêté du 24 juin 2011.

The national IR is not in the scope of the circulary.

I’ll keep looking.

LFPT, LFPN

Peter, the privileges are described here:

Les privilèges du titulaire d’une qualification nationale de vol aux instruments (avion) F/N-IR (A) permettent d’agir sans rémunération comme pilote aux commandes (PIC) dans l’espace aérien français sur des avions relevant des qualifications de classe monomoteur ou multimoteurs à piston terrestre (SEP-T ou MEP-T), en régime IFR conformément à la réglementation technique applicable, en exploitation non commerciale.

No restrictions wrt reg.

LFPT, LFPN

I believe I found it this time.

This document says that the holder of F/N-IR can obtain an EASA IR(CB) provided they satisfy the provisions of FCL.055d.

See the very bottom of the document.
2011_06_24_Arrete_Qualif_FN_IR_A_Conso_2015_01_23_pdf

LFPT, LFPN

What’s rather extraordinary in this, if I read it correctly, is that the French are saying their F/N-IR is valid in all airspace where ATC services are in French, whatever the registry. That’s quite old skool imperialistic stuff!

But as Aviathor says, I read this as giving a straightforward path from the F/N-IR to an EASA Ir(A) via assessment, TK and practical exam (I.e. No 15h minimum training etc).

EGTF, LFTF

No assessment, no TK, no skill test. Only FCL 1.055d.

Le titulaire d’une qualification nationale de vol aux instruments avion F/ N-IR (A), obtenue conformément aux dispositions de l’arrêté du 24 juin 2011 dans sa version antérieure au présent arrêté ou dans sa version issue du présent arrêté, peut se voir délivrer une qualification de vol aux instruments avion IR (A) accordant les mêmes privilèges que la qualification IR (A) obtenue suite à une formation IR (A) modulaire fondée sur les compétences telle que prévue à l’appendice 6 A bis de l’annexe I « Partie FCL » du règlement (UE) n° 1178/2011 susvisé, dès lors qu’il satisfait aux dispositions fixées par le paragraphe FCL. 055 d) du règlement (UE) n° 1178/2011 susvisé.

Sorry about the French.

I also found another note where DGAC compare the CB-IR requirements with those of pre-CB-IR and the F/N-IR and conclude the CB and F/N IR are essentially the same in terms of TK and training requirements.

But then again I am not sure that there are many holders of the F/N IR, so the number of conversions will be limited, and all will have to be done before the deadline in 2019 when all national exceptions are supposed to end AFAIU, including the IR(R)?

LFPT, LFPN

But then again I am not sure that there are many holders of the F/N IR, so the number of conversions will be limited, and all will have to be done before the deadline in 2019 when all national exceptions are supposed to end AFAIU,

I have heard various stories on this. Years ago, c. 2008, I was asked by somebody (some organisation; don’t recall which now; I was involved in a campaign called “Save the IMC Rating”) whether I could survey my pilot contacts as to their views on a reduced version of the JAA IR. One of the things I did was to ask a good French friend of mine (he sometimes pops in here but mostly I think he is off the internet) to ask for views in French pilot forums. After a bit he got back to me and the replies were quite astonishing in their hostility to any relaxation. The usual elitist reasons were cited, with much fear of many deaths if the IR was made any easier to get. There were positive replies too but the % of the negative ones did amaze me. (Could have been “pilot forum bias” on the data of course; pilots do like to slaughter those who want less regulation). A similar survey in the UK among private pilots would have been almost totally in favour, somewhat less so among serving airline pilots, and very much less so among ATC who feared the then traditional scare stuff i.e. 10,000 VLJs flying out of Luton, and thousands of Cessna 150s doing 75kt TAS at FL100-150 in the “airways”.

Much later, July 2011 (I found the email from another very well connected French pilot) I heard the French IR was being offered at Limoges, but only to French nationals!

When I later asked my French friend about the FN IR c. 3 years ago, he said he doesn’t know anybody who did it. This surprised me as he was very well connected in French club-level GA.

IMHO, an IR which is French airspace only is not going to have many takers because

  • there is little long distance / high altitude flying within France (by French pilots) and even less (far less) going outside France
  • long distance VFR is quite easy in France, in the FL065-115 Class E, and in Class G
  • the extensive military airspace (which like all complicated CAS drives the demand for the IR) is well dealt with by the club locals

including the IR(R)

Indeed, but ever since the 2019 deadline was conceded by EASA, “everybody” outside EASA regarded it as the equivalent of the political kicking of it into the long grass, and this point of view continues.

EASA has far less political power today (thanks to lots of factors, like Greece nearly melting down the EU ) and we are a long way from their 2008 total arrogance when Eric Sivel stood up at a conference and said that regs must be standardised all over the EU and the IMC Rating is dead unless every EU member state wants it (i.e. totally dead). He then said, to about 200 people, that he is in favour of it but said Please don’t quote me otherwise I will get into trouble!

There are new people in EASA now, generally seemingly pro-GA, and anyway if EASA tried to kill the IMCR (the IR(R)) the UK CAA has said they will invoke a clause called the Equivalent Safety Case and basically tell EASA to screw themselves.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I don’t see the link between the greece debt crisis and the power of EASA…

Anyway, I think now that Patrick Ky finally got rid of the “Rulemaking Directorate” we can expect less stupid regs and maybe even hope for readable regs ?

I also read with interest the contributions provided by your French friend but some things depend of the venue. If the forum is ill-chosen you will get response from professionals and then you are aligned with the UK info. And I am sure that a number of F/N-IR (A) have been issued in the Paris area. I can’t vouch for Limoges… Of course it was short lived but some pilots took the opportunity because they were certain at the time that France would provide a bridge to the coming CB-IR

ELLX (Luxembourg), Luxembourg

I don’t see the link between the greece debt crisis and the power of EASA

This is politics so very dodgy but I saw a strong link, several years ago, when this first blew up. There was a huge change. But, as often, several things probably happened at the same time. It’s a bit like debating whether the meltdown of the Soviet Bloc was enabled by a strong USA with a popular president (Reagan) or by economically weak USSR combined with a pragmatic politburo chairman (Gorbachev). In reality, both, IMHO. An interesting topic for me (born in LKPR).

Anyway, I think now that Patrick Ky finally got rid of the “Rulemaking Directorate” we can expect less stupid regs and maybe even hope for readable regs ?

It looks that way, but some things remain hard. It’s been said that accepting FAA STCs is the hardest thing of all. That tells me there are powerful internal groups, still.

Of course it was short lived but some pilots took the opportunity because they were certain at the time that France would provide a bridge to the coming CB-IR

At the time the FN IR was announced, I was told by someone familiar with the action that the intention was (a) to force EASA’s hand to get on with it and (b) if EASA did not bring out a more accessible IR, France would declare that all FN IR holders have an ICAO IR I have some notes on France from back then near the end of here

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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