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ALL Italian airports: non Schengen flights are possible / immigration available

Switzerland is part of Schengen but not part of the Customs Union which is why we have to put up with the AOE hassle. And now following the vote on the free movement agreement and the likely cancellation thereof it’s quite likely it’ll get even worse :).

? does that mean Switzerland would leave the Schengen group? If so, at what term?

EBZH Kiewit, Belgium

No, Switzerland will not leave Schengen. Schengen is about border control, not about the right of unlimited permanent migration. This requirement stems from a treaty between Switzerland and the EU and the Swiss people have voted that it has to be re-negotiated to limit the influx. Now that immigration has cooled down in Switzerland, they might try to find a way to let the resolution die silently…

I am quite certain that Switzerland will join the customs union one day but that’s not easy. What I absolutely not understand is why the UK do not join Schengen. That is just plain stupid.

> What I absolutely not understand is why the UK do not join Schengen. That is just plain stupid.

It is I have to agree, but they are on their BREXIT already.

United Kingdom

Politically not possible.

Various socialist governments have implemented a generous welfare system and now EU laws prevent discrimination against immigrants. This and the widely used language makes the UK a popular destination.

The solution is to cut back the welfare system but there is a vast dependency on it.

OTOH we have the GAR system which is a big plus.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Various socialist governments have implemented a generous welfare system and now EU laws prevent discrimination against immigrants. This and the widely used language makes the UK a popular destination.

The German welfare system is much more generous and the Belgian is even more so. Not even to mention Sweden and Denmark. Yet these countries can live without the fear of being invaded although there is no Channel between them and their poorer neighbors.

And BTW, the argument is wrong. Schengen has nothing to do with migration. Every EU citizen has the right to move to the UK. Not the right to immediately draw welfare benefits but that has nothing to do with checking passports. Provided I have a valid EU passport, the UK cannot refuse me at the border.

OTOH we have the GAR system which is a big plus.

Yes but it only addresses the UK side, not the other country you’re flying from/to. Still the UK is more practical for pilots than Switzerland. Not being EU and not having a GAR makes it more difficult.

Last Edited by achimha at 30 Jul 10:08
Various socialist governments have implemented a generous welfare system and now EU laws prevent discrimination against immigrants. This and the widely used language makes the UK a popular destination.

The solution is to cut back the welfare system but there is a vast dependency on it.

Oh, come on! When the eastern european expansion of EU happened, there was major concern in some circles in Sweden of “social tourism” from those countries. That has not happened.

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 30 Jul 10:15
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

There is always a mix of immigration and migration.

OTOH we have the GAR system which is a big plus.

I would not call the GAR a plus, it is a nuisance, totally unnecessary.

United Kingdom

Achim,

I agree and I have been avoiding Switzerland for quite some time due to the hassle with customs.

Whose? Actually flying in and out of Switzerland from Germany is not a big deal, you can go unannounced into places like Altenrhein or Grenchen who have customs for you. It’s actually the way back which can be teidious, however, if you know your airfields, you can easily deal with it. Personally, I don’t have that problem too much because most airports I fly to are full AOE’s (in Germany) and so is my homebase ZRH, which is one reason I stay there despite quite high cost.

Philip,

No. My post was an answer to the question why a large part of the private pilots do not fly abroad. Some of their “fears” are unfounded, others can be overcome fairly easily by tactics and information. I am not one of them, almost all my flights which are not part of some organized fly ins are abroad.

Personally, I have found enough ways around this problem by
a) basing myself on an AOE despite high costs, but for me it’s more important to be able to fly non-stop to my destinations regardless if they are Schengen or not.
b) if I need to go to a place without customs, I have a list of AOE’s which are convenient and good. Speyer, Augsburg, Salzburg, Klagenfurt, are some I have used in the past for this purpose, there are plenty in France (Chambery, Avignon, Annemasse, Montpellier, Colmar are just a few which come to mind).

The problems here are from/to the UK and Switzerland primarily as well as non Schengen destinations. Why people are hesitant to fly from Belgium to Germany and back is beyond me, as you say, it has become much easier within EU/Schengen.

My VFR rate has been more like 70% this year and I am sure the others are at least somewhere in the middle.

Good for you. I guess you’d agree that it depends strongly where you are based and what your destinations are. If you have to define your schedule months in advance and almost all of your travel means crossing the alps, even 10% is optimistic. In the flatlands of Germany or Holland, it is a totally different ball game. But if you are a bit patient, I am working on a study on this at the moment, if all goes well it should be out by June 2015. Hopefully it will give a bit more precise numbers on this.

In this context however, in my experience having to pre-advice a customs destination 48 hours (or even 24 hours) before you arrive with an accuracy of +-15 minutes is unrealistic even for most IFR operations. Therefore, it makes a lot of sense trying to choose places which do not have such PNR’s or best who have regular AOE facilities where you can arrive whenever flight conditions allow it. Personally, unless it is my destination, i would try to avoid places like that.

To put it a bit harsh: senior pilots who do speak some English yet don’t fly abroad just “because it’s too complicated” are simply chickens

True. Or they have had the wrong people to talk to. I’ve met flight instructors who don’t instead of teaching people how it’s done. And EU/EU Schengen/Schengen it is unbelievable that people don’t profit from this. Why? Are they so indoctrinated from old times that they can’t overcome it?

And finally the customs / immigration thing. 90% of all related developments in recent years have been positive. 90% of all European private pilots benefit hugely (read the new PuF issue which will be out tomorrow). Granted – Switzerland with its non-EU status is a special case and yes, the effects of customs and immigration aerodromes being reduced in other countries come as an inconvenience. But what’s important is the big picture, which is certainly much improved.

No doubt about it. And it will get even better when more EU countries join Schengen.FWIW Switzerland is on a dangerous isolationist path at the moment, so is the UK if they really decide to leave the EU. I am no friend of the EU but I am also very concerned about growing nationalism in Europe. It may well undo a lot of the positive developments we’ve been experiencing if it continues.

Jan,

And the point Mooney Driver is making is that for_him transnational flights have become harder. Only I am afraid he has only his own authorities to thank.

For me, not much has changed since I started in 1983…other that for direct flights we ar more restricted due to airports loosing customs. The same is true for the UK. All I tried is to give an answer as to why there are people who shy away. I don’t.

Why I would have “my own authorities” to thank for that I don’t know. If you mean why we are not in the EU, that is the people’s decision, not the authorities. Our authorities at least provide on request customs (Schengen area flights) on a lot of the non/AOE’s. And I can hardly blame them for Germany and France shutting down customs on airfields they feel don’t need it anymore. After all, it’s their taxpayers who pay and not the Brits or Swiss.

Peter,

But maybe the problem is the “coffee trip” as a mission objective. Paying €100-200 for a coffee is sure going to put people off flying. All the time people are doing that (and I accept that most of GA is doing just that) they will chuck it in fast.

You mean the 100$ hamburger thing? True, for many that won’t hold long. Which is why encouraging people to do longer and more gratifying trips is important.

Otherwise, the coffee price here is between 2 and 3 Euros like everywhere else.

Didn’t you know that Zurich is the most expensive city in Europe?

Zürich may well be but the country itself is not. And there is a lot more to see and do here than just Zürich… I don’t like to go there either, even though I live 20 minutes from it. Apart, don’t reduce Zürich to the “Bahnhofstrasse”. After all, London is not limited to Regency Street either. In both places you can find normal and luxury. I don’t think for the visitor it is much more expensive than most other cities, unless you stick to the really expensive places.

Last Edited by Mooney_Driver at 30 Jul 11:57
LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Zürich may well be but the country itself is not.

I really like going to Switzerland, but I do find it extremely expensive – and not only Zurich.

It’s one of the few countries where the daily travel allowance I claim for business trips does not even get close to my expenses on an average day. A lunch at those supermarket-attached restaurants like Migros sets you back by, what, some 20 CHF? I’ll have lunch at virtually any other of my regular trip destinations for around 5 EUR unless I want to splurge.

Last Edited by Patrick at 30 Jul 11:46
Hungriger Wolf (EDHF), Germany
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