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Why doesn't a flight plan constitute PPR/PNR?

Can anyone offer an opinion why this doesn't work?

I think it's due to the bizzare working practices (job demarcation) in aviation.

You can have the OPS office 2m across a corridor from the Customs office, but the person in OPS will absolutely not walk the 2m and give a copy of the FP to the Customs person.

As a result, we have the relative ease of filing a flight plan, via the AFTN system, but we have the various hassles of digging out airport contact details and trying to get through to somebody.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

It's not just customs, it's Special Branch as well. Every UK flight I make out of the Isle of Man (including jersey, Guernsey and Northern Ireland) special branch has to be informed. There is no joined up thinking about the three elements of SB, flight plan and customs. Very few smaller airports have the SB information, it has to be searched for by the pilot and sometimes it's not easy. Where handling is involved of course the handling agent will do everything for you, at a cost. Several handling agents have refused to divulge the SB details so they can charge you for e mailing your Gen Dec to SB. Some SB offices are very diligent, more so earlier this year because of the Olympics. I flew up to Oban (EGEO ) in April to be met by SB who had driven up from Glasgow ( a two hour drive) to interview me and my three passengers. SB for Sherburn are always there and diligent.

Some SB offices call to say they have received the Gen Dec, others E mail you a pre authorisation number but mostly the Gen Dec goes into the ether leaving the pilot with doubts as to whether the correct SB office has got it or not.

There is no joined up thinking at all in this.

The best SB is Islay. The local officer had received my Gen Dec and was there waiting for us. He asked where we were going, I said to the Ardbeg distillery and could we order a taxi. He said, don't need to do that, I'll take you and he did.

EGNS/Garey Airstrip, Isle of Man

Peter, for as little as I know about the matter, one might as well ask why, on the sale of a pair of shoes, there is no offer of the polish. Everybody knows they'll have to be polished, don't they? Why must I still ask for the polish?

Or, the other way round, remember how annoying it used to be at the services on the Bundesbahn: you got the car's fill of petrol, and they'd ask at least twice if you also wanted the oil level checked. Bugger off! Checking the oil level is MY responsability, if I want anything you'll hear from me.

Flight plan and PNR are simply different activities, with different parties, for different purposes. That some of the info is the same is purely accidental.

(all this under the reserve: "If a young head may instruct gray hairs...". Counting age as pilot's experience, of course, in calender years we might be not far apart)

EBZH Kiewit, Belgium

I was going to suggest that in some cases PPR gives the airport /airfield the chance to offer additional joining,departure or other information (e.g. to advise that a certain taxiway is closed). I suppose for an Airport, with an APP/DEP/RDR controller they have the ability to publish NOTAM's as and when, and any other pertinent information would be published on the AIP and IFR plates. In that case I would agree that the PPR email/telephone conversation is a pain.

For a smaller Airport/Airfield with A/G and who doesnt publish NOTAM's themselves, does not check for incoming flight plans, or has not been able to get a plate updated, then PPR makes sense.

I was going to suggest that in some cases PPR gives the airport /airfield the chance to offer additional joining,departure or other information (e.g. to advise that a certain taxiway is closed)

Good point; however that's what Notams are for. And again there is a well established international framework for those.

A small field won't (or can't, or claims it can't; another can of worms in the UK where unlicensed airfields say they can't but apparently can) generate notams, but (and let's assume the flight does need a flight plan e.g. an intra-Schengen strip-strip flight) the pilot ought to know that he ought to contact the field to check if it's open etc.

There will always be a "threshold size" below which a prior contact is advisable, but in the vast majority of those flights a flight plan won't be needed anyway.

But I still don't see why a "normal" airport (one that has full time staff etc but needs say PNR for Customs, as so many non-H24 airports do) doesn't accept a flight plan as the PNR.

I do know that in some/many cases the handling agent sees the flight plan data on a screen and they do use this info to realise that there is a particular inbound flight which they need to be ready for. So.... how come they can read the screen, while e.g. Customs can't? I think the reason is that the handler is a business (€€€ matters) while Customs get paid a salary even if they just sit there (and obviously most people prefer to get paid for doing nothing).

To complicate the example further, here in the UK, Customs/Immigration/SB (nowadays often the same policeman turns up) do see flight plans and use that to decide whether to turn up. It's not rocket science after all; it's technically trivial to get plugged into the AFTN and get CCd on flight plans.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Funny thing happened a while ago when flying from Rotterdam to the UK. I had faxed the GAR to the UK side of things, and submitted a flight plan, all on the evening before. But I had NOT informed customs/immigration at the Rotterdam end, thinking I would simply step by their office before the flight - and I did.

Arrived at the club to find that they had contacted the club earlier, saying they wanted to see me before I set off. Well I just went to see them, so all is well, right? So I taxi out to the pumps and find myself being followed across the apron by two customs/immigration guys who wanted to see my passport once again. They were nice and apologetic about their collegue not telling them that I had already been to their office, but still... They knew I was departing for the UK and the only way they could have known that was from the FPL.

Furthermore, coming back a few days later the actual FPL was only in the system minutes before departure (due to a diversion and a subsequent hasty departure, so that I would be on the ground before EOD), and I totally forgot to visit customs upon arrival. Never heard a thing about it.

So at least at Rotterdam Customs/immigration have access to FPL data but it's far from watertight.

Yes, but without the GAR, they don't know who is onboard so they can use that to decide whether to come. Not defending it but there is stuff on the UK form which goes beyond that in the flight plan.

EGTK Oxford

Yes, but without the GAR, they don't know who is onboard so they can use that to decide whether to come. Not defending it but there is stuff on the UK form which goes beyond that in the flight plan.

Very true, but the rest of the world manages to operate "roaming Customs" without knowing who is in the plane.

Presumably if your name is Bin Laden you are not going to put that on the GAR form anyway. Anybody like that and who has a brain will have a 2nd ID. And anybody with a brain who is readily recognisable will enter/leave the country via a less conspicuous means. In the case of the UK, via a boat.

The French have roaming Customs at most of the airfields frequented by Brits. Most of the time there is nobody there. So they decide according to some criteria. Actually that's a bad example since the French have just pulled the "Customs" status from about 50 airports, which for the most part they never visited anyway...

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Very true, but the rest of the world manages to operate "roaming Customs" without knowing who is in the plane.

At least in Germany, airfields with PNR/PPR Customs will require the list of passengers and their date of birth in advance (even though that should not strictly be necessary in the Switzerland/Germany case which is intra-Schengen). Then they decide whether they will pay you a visit. In my experience it does not depend on who is coming but on the weather and workload. If it's nice and sunny, they are more inclined to do a trip to the airfield.

In theory, one must not leave the aircraft before the estimated landing time that was communicated to Customs in the PNR/PPR. If I actually do arrive earlier, I would usually ask someone to call the Customs office and ask whether they are coming.

In Germany, Customs/Immigration is still free of charge. In Switzerland I paid CHF 60 a year ago at a small grass strip for Customs that never turned up. At that price I was expecting to get a thorough examination of my aircraft including X-ray for embedded drugs. Very disappointing.

Has there been any change on this i.e. any airports stating that the FP is ok for PNR?

It can’t be enough for PPR unless it contains contact details for the pilot

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
23 Posts
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