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Electric / hybrid aircraft propulsion (NOT cars)

That’s an excellent point.

I wonder how this is addressed? Heating the battery is one obvious way. It must have been addressed with electric cars.

I’ve just popped “downstairs” where they work on electric cars and the way it is addressed there is a combination of:

  • when on charge, the battery pack is heated (or fan cooled if too hot)
  • the battery pack is rapidly heated when you start the car when it is really cold (this needs to be done quickly if starting at a genuine battery temp of say -10C)
  • the battery pack is ~450kg so takes a long time to cool down, even overnight, if the car was driven the previous day
  • some cars have a reversible heat pump which does an “aircon” for the battery, as well as for the rest of the car

Seeing the technology, it is clear countless millions were spent on developing these systems. Even in a cheap electric car the engineering effort is really impressive. It’s a million miles away from GA engineering as we know it.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

When we fly enroute we set mixture to a known fuel flow. We know what is in the tanks and that we will get to our destination no matter what the temperature is outside.
In an electric plane we can never be sure or….?

“Declaring an emergency due to early battery depletion”.

EKRK, Denmark

I’d wager the battery status of a properly designed electric aircraft would be more ‘knowable’ than the fuel status of your average spamcan.

hmng wrote:

In the mean time, Siemens, which looked like it had a long term, strategical view on electrical propulsion, has sold the unit to Rolls Royce

Well, at some point the knowledge and experience in the industry and about the process of which the particular technology shall exist, will become essential. Sounds like a good move from Rolls Royce (as well as Siemens), and may have been the plan all from the start. The two companies have done the same for gas turbines a few years ago, only the other way around.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

I am puzzled why Siemens thought they won’t make money out of it, while RR thought they can.

My view is that neither is going to make money out of it

But RR have their fingers in an awful lot of pies. For example, in the 40kt+ ferries which are now seen around the Greek islands, you find GE engines driving RR “ducted propellers”. So maybe they found something… or maybe they just want more “green” credentials and this is a great way to get green press coverage.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

I am puzzled why Siemens thought they won’t make money out of it, while RR thought they can.

I think for RR its an exercise in hedging bets, and more immediately in maintaining relationships with customers and with government agencies that are often their ultimate funding source. Those customers and agencies are doing electric propulsion R&D in order to be perceived as relevant in a ‘hot’ area – regardless of expectations for success in regard to current applications.

Siemens can now claim that they were a pioneer and transitioned the technology to an aircraft OEM… a statement which from now forward will cost them nothing.

Last Edited by Silvaire at 26 Jun 18:34

Socata are getting onto the electric act

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/aerospace/2019-06-17/daher-airbus-safran-team-ecopulse-hybrid-propulsion

I would find the photoshop skills quite useful

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

An electric Caravan will be flying this year. 1000 miles endurance it seems.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

That aircraft conversion is simply a proving bed for a 750HP electric engine, and makes no claims about the range or speed of that particular aircraft.

The 1,000NM range presumably comes from the sentence “electric aviation has the ability to immediately disrupt ‘Middle Mile’ transit – passenger and commercial transportation up to 1,000 miles”.

I cannot understand why reasonably intelligent and knowledgeable people like pilots continue to fall for claims, explicit or implied, that defy the laws of physics (nearly same range electric as with conventional power) or bureaucracy (“certified / soon to be certified / first next month”).

And again, the basic arithmetic:

  • According to the Cessna 208B POH, max range torque at 1,600 RPM and 10,000ft is 1,335 ft-lbs, which is 407 hp, or just above 300 kW
  • That power setting gives around 150kt TAS, so the 1000 miles will take 6 hours and 40 minutes
  • That means to fly 1,000 miles, you would need 2,000 kWh (!)
  • With a battery density of 150 kWh per tonne (e.g., Tesla Model 3) the battery would weigh more than 13 tons. Raw chemistry only, still around 7 tons
  • MTOW, however, is 4 tonnes, and empty weight around 2.1.

On the “good news” front – if you crammed in the maximum amount of batteries it could carry, you could get 300 kW and fly for an hour, which would get you 150 miles without reserve – and without payload.

Biggin Hill

Cobalt wrote:

I cannot understand why reasonably intelligent and knowledgeable people like pilots continue to fall for …

Not that difficult. They say selling private aircraft is selling dreams. This is the same principle. Without those dreamers, there would be no aircraft at all. Nothing else either for that matter.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway
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