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Can one do a JAA initial IR test in a plane with no ADF?

An ADF can emulate a VOR

But no matter how complex you make the ADF receiver, it can never get rid of the atmospheric effects

LSZK, Switzerland

That’s true but, purely technically, the difference is really only in the required receiver complexity. An ADF can emulate a VOR if it has an accurate heading source and an accurate DF antenna system.

In practice, obviously, the VOR system is a lot more accurate.

What staggers me is the reported cost of a VOR – over €1M to buy one, and c. €100k/year to keep it running. That 100k can’t be the electricity (it radiates only c. 100W) so it basically looks like there is some company out there which has CAA approvals to make and maintain them and has everybody over a barrel and is happily shafting them. Excluding the antenna array, the cost of (duplicate) electronics can’t be more than 1k. Add the cost of the little “house”, say 100k… somebody has to be taking the piss, mega big time.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Further to Neil:

A further difference is that a VOR also broadcasts azimuth information. An NDB shouts “I am here!” whereas a VOR says “I am here and I am on your xxx radial”

Last Edited by at 18 Jun 08:32
EBZH Kiewit, Belgium

And I am pretty sure pilot training there in state flight academies was a lot , I mean a lot more substantinal than in the west to practise NDB navigation as well. This must have been that profound that even a constant and reliable wodka level of min. 2 promille (verified before each!!! flight by the med on

If comparing old communist era education with present day western education is any measure, the former would have been vastly better in the aviation sphere also. Much of western education is a joke today. The PPL is no exception – it is a commercial product, with no commercial incentive to produce a pilot who can fly A to B. In fact the commercial incentive runs the other way… “100hr students” are what you want.

If you are over flat terrain, or open sea, and there is no real wx, an NDB is as accurate as a VOR can be – within 1 degree or better. You can check this with a modern ADF (like my KR87 – perhaps the only GA ADF that actually works properly, and does it for more than 5 minutes after some rain) when flying over the middle of N France, towards an NDB. Absolutely spot on.

NDBs are poor when there is terrain or a water surface which is assymetrically located relative to your inbound track. So if e.g. you are flying towards the Lydd NDB and you are careful to be approaching the coast at 90 degrees to the coastline from the south, it is pretty accurate. Unfortunately few runways are also at 90 degrees to the coastline so straight away you have a very assymetric layout which is why coastal NDBs are so crap – anything up to 30 degrees off. And the inaccuracy happens when your distance to the beacon is of the same order of magnitude as the distance between the beacon and the surrounding terrain/water feature(s) – which is usually perfect for throwing the bearing off around the FAF At Shoreham, it is accurate below 2D and outside of 6D and between the two it swings wildly. Yet, on your IRT, you are expected to track the indication – not kidding.

NDBs are very good for long range nav, where you are so far away from it that the terrain near it is irrelevant. So if you have an NDB somewhere in Russia, radiating say 100kW, and you are say 100-300nm away, you will get a very accurate bearing.

Also, often when people ask “how did the pilots get around in the old days” one must not forget there was little or no CAS and probably no enforcement. Think how easy it would be to fly around the UK or Europe if that was the situation?

At the receiver, there is no technological reason why there should be big errors. The system is certainly good for less than 1 degree and I recall talking to one ex RAF navigator who was getting bearing accuracies of 0.2 degree, in carefully selected (impractical) situations.

Last Edited by Peter at 18 Jun 08:12
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

VHF is a different question. NDB’s are effectively in the “medium wave” band, in the region of 1MHz or less, whereas VHF is in the order of 100MHz.

It is the low frequency that gives NDB’s their range but with that advantage comes all the problems mentioned. There’s nothing the aircraft receiver can do about most of them.

Darley Moor, Gamston (UK)
What sort of accuracy can a simple VHF radio station have ? I see NDBs as little radios that get located by more sophisticated avionic in the aircraft. So I see the bigger problem in the quality of the ADF set. OK, coordination may be a problem for identification but only if frequencies are poorly selected for NDBs too close together. Vic
vic
EDME

But they are the least accurate

Not only that, but they’re also the most affected by the atmosphere, such as daytime d reflected skywaves, nighttime e reflected skywaves, coastal effect, susceptibility to thunderstorms

They also seem to be less well coordinated, and there’s no channel raster, or rather it is 1kHz but the bandwidth of the receivers is usually 3kHz or more, so you can quite often hear multiple NDB’s at different frequencies in the passband, leading to “interesting” results

While with VOR’s or ILS you can get away not listening to the audio ident, for NDB’s that’s not a good idea.

LSZK, Switzerland

I think the issue is that NDBs are inherently pretty inaccurate as are the ADF receivers in the aircraft. Of course they can work – I have flown plenty of NDB aproaches in Australia that worked well (and many that didn’t). But they are the least accurate of the modern approaches, that is why they are deprecated.

EGTK Oxford
I wonder how Russian pilots found their way around in this vast continent of USSR of old times without VORs nor GPS – only loads of NDBs ? VORs would have been useless with their range anyway. So maybe no US avionic crap onboard I guess. And I am pretty sure pilot training there in state flight academies was a lot , I mean a lot more substantinal than in the west to practise NDB navigation as well. This must have been that profound that even a constant and reliable wodka level of min. 2 promille (verified before each!!! flight by the med on each airfield) was absolutely acceptable for a safe flight. A lot of accidents there were mainly extreme weather related and not a problem of poor navigation. Having done only minimal NDB nav myself what is the big problem with that ? Sure you have to watch what the wind effect has on your heading. But I learned that VORs can be off by several degrees as well . So why this flak on NDBs ? Vic
vic
EDME

More AOC aircraft have GPS APCH capability than you suggest. In my view a GPS substitution will come soon inEurope.

EGTK Oxford
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