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Aircraft VAT / import VAT / getting busted upon landing in the EU (merged thread)

Entering Schengen airspace from a non Schengen European state or from abroad without passing through an approved airport with custom facilities.

That would be correct. I would not expect to be able to fly e.g. UK to some non-Customs airport and get away with it, because they have had your flight plan for the last X hours so have plenty of time to get the police to wait for you. The whole country’s AIS system has had your flight plan for X hours, and it would surprise me if there wasn’t a bit of software in there for flagging noncompliant flights.

What would interest me is whether there is a system in place whereby you divert on your way back, direct to the UK i.e. you skip the outbound Customs stop. I have never heard of such a system, and it has certainly been done many times. Obviously they can’t get you there and then (because you are back home!) but could run a database and get you next time you visit that country. OTOH you would always have the defence of having made a diversion decision according to weather etc.

This is all very interesting and concerning but is there any Euroga reader who has actually had any of this happen?
I have made probably a hundred flights to France (and a few to Spain (G reg) never been ramp checked, my flying buddies tell the same story except for one ramp check in Biarritz on an N reg but no problem encountered and certainly neither the log book for the plane or pilot required.

The N-reg checks are a curious thing. I suspect they are rare but when they are done they are done thoroughly and aggressively, That is how you would get a lot of worrying stories going around but you would find it very hard to get your hands on somebody who has actually got hit. I don’t recall ever meeting an N-reg owner who told me in detail he got hit and what happened. But isn’t that a standard way of police working? They can’t be everywhere all the time, so to create the required fear they turn up somewhere and create havoc, to make sure the message is understood.

Can anyone confirm what kind of VAT documents the French or Italian Customs look for? For example is a VAT invoice with “paid” on it sufficient? It should not be, if you are doing it absolutely diligently. A Form C88 is normally unobtainable because it shows the price the dealer paid for the aircraft and he is obviously not going to let you see that. Also you cannot get a C88 for an aircraft made in the EU (e.g. Socata) because no import took place. Actually, I am told, a Cert of Free Circulation is also meaningless for a Socata, so long as it never left the EU for a long time.

Last Edited by Peter at 10 May 19:48
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I am fortunate in having a C88 and a vat invoice so I think I am covered, but nobody has ever asked for these, to be fair I am careful to stick by the rules, give whatever customs notice is required and always use customs airfields for entering/leaving Schengenland, but I certainly know people who are a bit more ‘flexible’ with the rules ….

Surely a well travelled fellow such as yourself, Peter, has come across this harassment ?

Flying a Commander 114B
Sleap EGCV Hawarden EGNR

I would not describe myself “well travelled” but have been to France countless times and have never been checked.

Italy I can’t really speak for as I tend to avoid it for landings, due to some bad experiences. But my view, formed from a number of visits and from speaking to regulars who go there, is that the big H24-type airports are OK. But they should be, at the price…

I would absolutely not dismiss reports of these things happening but as I said above it is self evidently obvious that they are rare. And I don’t think markkal is saying otherwise. But when you get it, you get it.

Somebody recently reported on a big hit in Italy (probably on EuroGA – perhaps do a search on San Marino) and mentioned that the N-regs got the “treatment” but the T7s got let off. Since San Marino is in Italy, that is what I would expect to happen in Italy But one UK VAT specialist has sent round an email saying the SM VAT route is invalid. I probably have that email so if anybody wants it, let me know. I did look at the SM registry a while ago and they wanted an awful lot of money… also it is clearly in the EU so (unlike living on the IOM for example) would not help you avoid getting the EASA IR in addition to the FAA IR.

Last Edited by Peter at 10 May 20:40
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

So anybody else been ‘ramped’ and had these problems?

Also what about the legendary prohibited area busts which we (anecdotally ) hear about with 10000 euro fines and aircraft seizures, anybody know if this has really ever happened?

I think it’s a vicious rumour put about by the froggies

Last Edited by PhilTheFlyer at 10 May 20:26
Flying a Commander 114B
Sleap EGCV Hawarden EGNR

I too have never been able to trace anybody who either paid such a fine or had their plane confiscated, nor have I ever found anybody who knew anybody who had.

However I did have an encounter with their system in 2003 – mentioned here. In those days the TRAs were not on the charts or in the notams and I got away with a stiff letter from the UK CAA. The 5 month delay by the French was grossly disingenuous, especially as they asked for the name of the pilot at the time it happened (which I thought was weird). Not sure I would like to be landing in France on the same flight…

As I said above, this whole business has the hallmarks of traditional police activity i.e. hit them randomly and hit them hard, which maximises fear and minimises resources expended.

Last Edited by Peter at 10 May 20:47
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

My concern is that people who might fancy spreading their wings a bit will be put off by these stories

Flying a Commander 114B
Sleap EGCV Hawarden EGNR

In decades of flying I have only ever been asked for my pilot’s licence once, in Italy. Obviously I have had to produce it for various training/renewals.

Darley Moor, Gamston (UK)

Also my experience

Flying a Commander 114B
Sleap EGCV Hawarden EGNR

In the last two years into and out of Europe frequently in an N reg, never had a problem.

EGTK Oxford

My concern is that people who might fancy spreading their wings a bit will be put off by these stories

That’s why I have in the past tried to get real data on when/where etc.

However I think, as this VAT business seems to be an issue for N-reg (non EU reg) owners, they are pilots who probably don’t need much advice on spreading their wings.

Under the VAT treaty, each country can hit (a) its own reg or (b) a non EU reg. So e.g. a G-reg is safe anywhere in Europe except the UK. In the UK nobody cares anyway (which is how so many were imported from the USA without paying import VAT) and in say France or Italy nobody can touch you. They can check your pilot and aircraft documents but they can’t query the VAT status.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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